Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am extremely concerned... this has been my worst dragon week to date. First, Sallys (my very first BD ever, who is 9 years old and a survivor of MBD. I rescued her from a roommates little brother) neck and beard area begin to swell. It is severe swelling. I work at an animal hospital with a herp vet (THANK GOD) and don’t have to pay an arm and a leg for vet service. I take her in on Monday. He seems to think it is Vitamin A toxicity or kidney failure. I come home that night and find that Minos, a four-year-old male, was lethargic. He had been eating, happily breeding and active the day before. I gave him pedialyte, planning to take him in in the morning. Morning came and he was dead. I of course panic. I check everyone, and Dinkum, an 8-year-old female, looks dehydrated. I grab her, Minos, what fresh fecal samples I can find and take off to work.

This was what we found. #1 - Stool sample showed HOOKWORMS, which we found strange because I had done a communal fecal about 6 months ago and everyone was clean and I had not added any new BDs. #2 - The necropsy of Minos was strange. There was allot of free blood in the body cavity, suggesting internal bleeding, but all organs were intact and looked fine. Lungs were clear, stomach full of food. There was also clotting in the blood along all areas around the body cavity lining. #3 - The blood work on Sally came back absolutely fine. The culture we had drawn from the swollen area on her neck came back suggesting secondary infection from prior abscess. No cancer. Yet the fluid we pulled from the neck was not yellow, it was more like bloody tissue.

Well, everyone ( I have 12 dragons in all) has had a dose of panacur... Sally is on Batril.... and after subque fluids Dinkum is up, eating and acting fine.

I come home and my mother in law tells me about a disorder in baby goats..... bottle jaw, where their jaws and neck swell and it is due to a heavy parasite load. Soooo... I wonder if Sallys swollen beard could be due to the hooks?

AND I wonder..... where in the world did they pick up hoolkworms... could I have carried them home from work, food, what?? I think the ingestion of fecal matter containing eggs is the form of transmission. I am stumped, BUT SOOOOO greatful I took everyone in and caught it before I lost anyone else... I just hope the old girls can hang in there a little longer....

I dont have personal experience with hooks but I can tell you this, they are parasites with a direct life cycle (they do not need an intermediate host). they can penetrate skin or pass orally. they attach themselves to the intestines and feed on blood. They can cause a variety of problems including hemoragic ulcers.

as far as where they came from??? could be just about anything since they pass easily and can live outside the body. Do you feed crix or other bugs?

sorry I cant be of more help, good luck
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

Ok... I wasn't sure how they were transmitted. Thanks!! I felt as if the free blood in the body cavity had something to do with the hooks. I just think it is amazing it effected them so drastically in such a short period of time. I do feed insects, (crickets, superworms and lobster roaches) and I am in the controversial habit of giving my females pinkies after they have laid eggs......

pinkies are a good source for parasites, more so than insects. I dont agree with feeding rodents but if you do, you should considder F/T. the freezing kills the parasites. You might want to look into getting lab work on your feeders if the problem does not go away with medication. It could also be in the water supply so check that too.
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

Hookworms, although they can be found in and live in reptiles, it is not common and they are more often found in warm blooded mammals, that is usually the source of tranmission when they ingest them, such as the pinkies.

One well known herp vet we know and talk to, states he has never found hookworms in bearded dragons and was surprised to find that other vets had, but then he does not recommend feeding pinkies to any dragons so chances are his patients are not exposed to them.

Hookworms (and other worms) can and do migrate from the lungs to all other organs and can cause severe bleeding when their life cycle is complete and they release. In the lungs they can cause collapse and ruptures of the alveoli. They can block bile ducts in the liver/gall bladder and create toxic level build up to the point that the dragons appear drunk or uncoordinated and swelling to the point of ruptures. They can cause hemmorages in the intestines and stomach and this also can happen when they are treated, die and release. In the kidneys and liver they affect their ability to filter and purify blood which can create a toxic build up or increase in the bilirubins levels. They are excreted into the bile by the liver and stored in the gall bladder or transferred directly to the small intestines, but too high of levels can create hemmorages

When that happens in bearded dragons you can get several different symptoms, including some you mention. Bleeding into the body cavity, fluids building up in the throat, lungs and lower limbs, which in turn create secondary infections. Also you can get a yellow discoloration in the throat, skin and scales as the serum attempts to escape what the body can not filter

For your dragon with the fluid swollen throat, the method used most often is to treat the source, drain the fluid and antibitoics. It may refill right away and have to be repeated til the organs are clear and functioning again, since they can not do it. Keep an eye on her mouth colors and if it gets white or real pale, you may need to take her back to the vet for blood clotting or building meds as there will be some internal bleeding when the worms die and release from the organs. She may not want to eat much and she should be given soft puree food that takes little digestion while she heals

Nothing may show on blood panels as the causative event already occured, levels peaked and decline back to normal.... but if not treated the cycle will repeat, until the animals does not survive.

This is probably a factor in the outcome of your eggs also as the worms are depeleting the nutrients that that females need to produce healthy eggs and shell them

I am sorry you lost one and have some others not well, but thankfully you got them to a vet and found the source in them.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Cheri, I wish my herp vet knew as much as you!! At least he found the hooks, but he didn't offer half as much info. I am so worried about everyone. He didn't warn me at all that panacur would be hard on them. I have given them some pedialyte and everyone is still eating fine. Sally, with the swollen beard is staying at the hospital. She is still eating fine. He called today and said he wants to wait and see if the swelling goes down before he lances it. I just hate to do too much to her. She is so old. I don't know if you read my later post about the parazap.... but do you know anything about nature zones rid worm and their essential probiotics? We have that at the store, and upon comparing the indgredients, they seem to be the same as parazap and other probiotics. Thanks again for all the info. I have an incubator full of eggs... so I hope they do ok. If not there is allways next year!!

He does not have to lance it, if its like others that have toxins build up from the kidneys not functioning properly, if he looks way back in the back of the throat on the chin side with a pen light, he will see a thin membrane with the fluids inside it and it can be aspirated with a small needle and no pain to the dragon. She may not like having her mouth held open with a tongue depressor, but she will not feel the fluids removed.

If that membrane with fluids is not there, then it could be a secondary infection deep in her lymph glands and those I would be hesitant to open also. Usually antibiotics will decrease those or aspiration also.

I answered you other question about probiotics below, which I feel strongly should be given anytime antibiotics are used on bearded dragons.

Your welcome, I grew up on a teaching farm and we use to train second year vet students in hands on husbandry with more animals than I care to remember. I hated it at the time, being a teen and having to work all summer was rotten, but it has helped me a lot as an adult in working with rescues, exotics and other wild life.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Have you thought of puting a hookworm page on your site? The information you posted here alone is noteworthy. it would be great to have a place of reference to send people to that are looking for good info. Thanks for your input, this thread is going in my archives,
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

this one was too long and I was lazy Besides, you, christy, wideglide, kelpy, mattman and some others answer most the questions the same as I would, no getting around it, tried and proven husbandry works

I get too frustrated with some on here, advice and things they have done, best just to avoid them, peek in time to time and see if its safe to venture and post.

There are several things I need to get online, and some will be on a new site that is for bearded dragons only, the other is just too large now with all species of reptiles and I get lost on it!! We have it up, just not all the info ready yet.

I've been doing some studies on necropsies of bearded dragons in the US and thanks to many vets and labs I have about 70 now. That has some real interesting info, but most of it boils down to husbandry issues and things that could have been avoided. I thought it more effective to collect that data from labs and vets than to try and argue with some.

Another thing I was able to get was 27 normal blood panels and 32 abnormal ones so we have a good baseline of what is "normal" for bearded dragons at varous ages and times. With the abnormal ones we also got histories, symptoms and what the final outcome was, which tells us what something may be indicating and we can try to alter the course of the problem.

Just need more hours in a day to get them all done and up.... and darn, real work that pays the bills cuts into my time so badly.....haha.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I hope you don't mind, but I am printing everything you have written and taking it to work!! My herp vet is relatively new to the field, only about 4 years, and I really think your info will help him to provide better treatment for my guys. A little knowledge (or alot in your case) goes a long way.

A new concern struck me today, as I was giving my babies their daily misting..... what about them? I have five hatchlings, 3 weeks old, from my youngest females first clutch. They are in a seperate room, and luckily my first priority when it comes to care, so that at least has limited them from exposure somewhat. BUT.... can the hooks migrate into the embryo... and infect the fetus... I wasn't planning on selling these guys until they were juvis anyway to see how they turn out. But now I am sooooo afraid of passing this problem on to someone else. I will of course run fecals on them before making any decision, but wondered what your recomendations would be for them. I figure they are too young and delicate to handle treatment, and may not be able to handle hookworms either. This is just getting sadder and sadder All I have to say is DON'T FEED PINKIES!!

NO, your babies are safe as long as they have not had direct contact with the others since they hatched. Now, it is possible for you to have picked up eggs like under your nails or on clothes and passed them to the babies if you did not wash well between cleaning/handling the others and them.

Its not the meds for the worms that are so harsh on any reptile, panacur is probably one of the safer meds used on reptiles. Its the heavy load of worms that build up in the reptiles, migrate and then when they die off and can cause bleeding or blockages. If you ever see one under a microscope, they have frightening mouths, they actually "hook" into the intestines and other organs, thats where their name comes from. When they die off, the area they were attached to bleeds, if they were directly over a vessel, it can be a lot of blood. Also, the animals need to pass them through their system, and if the load was really heavy, they can impact them. Keeping hydration up during that time can help and also the addtional fluid helps the blood.

I would suggest collecting samples from the babies and having a "community fecal" done on them. Since they are so young, if they have them, they have not done much damage yet or got to high levels and can be treated easily now, were a few months from now that may not be the case. It's more dangerous to allow time to pass if they may have any than to use the meds to treat them.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I will gather fecals on my babes asap. AND... another thought... I have a red niger uro and a veiled chameleon. I am thinking I should treat them too, although I dread trying to treat the chameleon he stresses so easy. And another thought I had. The uro is a wild caught that I brought into my collection about 6-8 months ago. The strange thing is, the female that I had gotten with him, died a short while after I got her. I was told that happens with wild caughts sometimes, so I didn't get a neocropsy. Wish I would have now. I may have prevented this whole episode if they had hooks. The male is doing fine and has been the entire time I have had him. I am definately going to treat him, I just dread trying to get the Chameleon to calm down enough to treat!! And thanks again for all the info!!

There is a possibility that they could have gotten hookworm from salad. Slight chance, but possible. I feel sorrow at your loss and am praying that everyone comes out healthy. Hang in there and keep strong yourself.

I am however happy you took everybody and had them checked, and found the culprits! Those hooks are nasty.

Sure am hoping everybody will perk up and return to PERFECT HEALTH real soon. Now you have to sit back and relax, all will be fine again.

Tomorrow will be a BETTER day!
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Eve

I am sorry for your loss. I do think that your Stepmom is on to something about the goats. I am a Microbiologist and have most of my experience with Human Pathogens, but many characteristics of certain Worm Genus are zootic. Hookworms can travel throughout the body. The human lifecycle for the hookworm usually follows this pattern: penetrate the skin into a venule and find there way into the lungs. From the lungs they will migrate up the trachea and are then swallowed and find their way to the small intestine. Here the attach to the lining of intestine and suck blood causing anemia and certain vitamin defeciencies. They also can be from a species of Hookworm that are not specific to BD's. In this case the worms will migrate through the body causing tissue damage. Another thing is that species specific Hookworms will also migrate when in large numbers.
That is my take so Good Luck!!

Thanks everyone for the comforting words of encouragement. Everyone is still looking good. Sallys beard is still swollen, but the vet is giving the antibiotics a chance to work, even though I think it is directly linked to the hooks. After posting yesterday, and treating everyone at home with panacur, two of my females dug and laid eggs. Would the parasites effect the fertility of the eggs? These are my final clutches of the year (I think...lol.. you never know) and my hatch rate has been HORRIBLE up to this point. The eggs that have been laid are limp, dented, and upon candling only about half have been fertile. Just wondered if anyone had any experience with parasites effecting egg laying.

Hi
hookworms i know r hard to get rite of .
i whas bussy for 8-9 months with panacure and it not helpt for me.
it came back every 2/3 months .
on the last i also got flagelates and due the flagyl a medicine against flagelates i lost a beardie named kwazimodo.
i whas messed up for vew days i know how you feel
then some one told me to use parazap.com.
a herb that kills many diferent kind of worms.
the owner send me a free sample to the netherlands from usa.
then after 7 days tea 7 days no tea and then 7 days tea i whas free of the hookworms.
i bring 2 beardies to a vet and there the docter take a fresh poop and examed it.
then she not found hookworms and also she not founded flagelates.
i whas very happy
now i use every month 5 days on a row the parazap tea.
and now i have gotten a long time no parasites any more.
so i advice you to use parazap to.
the hookworms have hooks and then they can hold them zelf in the boddy.
they r very nasty that why the panacure not helpt for me every time it came back after 2,3 months.
also the flagelates where gone.
becuase the worms where gone the flagelates got away to .
i am not shure if the parazap killed it r the body got stronger and dealed with it .
but they where gone to.
byeeeeeeeeee
http://run.to/b22

They can be clean then be positive in a few years time several different results. The medicine is rough on the animal, its also rough on the parasites, so it may kill some of the parasites it may not. The animals natural ability to defend itself from parasites by normal thermoregulation and a healthy immune system is what sheds most of them. You could have a fecal show negative , 6 months later negative, then 6 months later positive because you are only reading the parasites being shed at the time during a fecal. I have always remembered the quote "bugs begot bugs", crickets are famous for roundworms. Id get your crickets tested then if need be switch to a different supplier, but keep looking for the source. Good luck.

.....

Well... all is still well here. My youngest female laid her second clutch today... and the eggs actually looked awsome, I just worry that the stress of laying and the parasites may be rough on her. I might add that I did NOT offer any of my females that just laid a pinkie. Just some really dusted roaches.

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I hope we all get through this.

I plan on re-treating with the panacur in two weeks as the vet advised, and then following up with the parazap. One question though, we have a product at work called RID WORM by Nature Zone. I compared the ingredient list to parazap and it seems to be almost identical, but the RID WORM is much cheaper. Also there is another product from Nature Zone I was planning on using after all this de-parasiting... Essential probiotics. It is the beneficial lacto bacillus bacteria I think to help get the digestive track back in order. Anyone ever heard of it??

anytime you worm an animal you should be using a probiotic. some meds like albon are especially hard on BDs and it is essential. Using a good probiotic can't hurt. I use acidophiliz. It was recomended to me by CheriS and I trust her implisidly on this. You might also consider using pedialite to keep them well hydrated as well.

good luck
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

are much better. Acidolphiliz+ by pet authority contains live active good bacteria for reptiles, it is in a liquid form and needs to be refrigerated once it is open to keep the bacteria alive.

ITs been on the market for over two years now and the ingredients in it are the same(except for the Yucca) we have been using for several years to keep reptiles healthy and recover from treatments or stomach problems.

You can find it in most PetSmarts, PetCo and also online at www.reptilesupply.com link below
Acidolphiliz

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www.reptilerooms.com

Hi
i never hear they got it in liquid i wil asked next time my veterian.
i am fgiving now the powder types like nutribac and the capsules .
is the liquid better??
thx