Reptile & Amphibian Forums

(Caution) Trying out new camera. This guy does not like to sit still. Had to put him in my largest plastic container just to make him "chill out" for a quick shot! LOL! Unlike my some of my others, this one IS A PIG and WILL eat ALL the time if you let him!!! Note the "small" (5" by 2.5" regular 12oz pepsi can below. He's very healthy and strong. Still don't know his age though. He acts like he's only about 3 or 4 years old!!!

Enjoy,

Zee

n/p

Cool looking snake !!! I would say he is more Eastern than anything he doesnt look to have a hardly any interband lightening like most Apalachicola X Eastern intergrades do. He obviously has some "Blotched King" in him though. Here are some intergrade pics. how does he look compared to these ?

Here is a darker intergrade but unlike yours this one has black tipped scales in the crossbars which is another marker for Eastern X Apalachicola intergrades.

Here is a pic of your 2003 males Father. Notice the lip scale patterns . Most GA's Ive noticed have the 2nd and 3rd white marking reduced or absent. its pretty a pretty common trait among Easterns from GA and parts of N. Florida but I dont usually see it in "Blotched Kings" or intergrades if you will. What does your big King have for a pattern here. All these Kings from southern GA have some small Apalachicola influence for sure look at what back breeding did for Will Still, and Kevin Enge back bred this year too and got a very orange and wide banded animal.

I wonder if your male isnt a southern GA locale near the Florida border ??? It would be cool if you find out any background info on him. Dont get me wrong Im not saying he is some freaked out hybrid but just more Eastern King than even most intergrades Ive seen. I wish I would have stumbled upon him at a show !!! He is an awesome looking snake.

Keith

p.s. Maybe Sean Belanger who knows that area and the Kings there far better than me can weigh in.
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Even though I'm far from an expert on these, I was wondering too how much apalachicola influence there was in the snake. (GORGEOUS SNAKE btw). Nice Pics too, thanks for posting them.
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~Sasheena

You know...he and Pandora would make some FINE looking babies I'd bet! And big too...
Just a thought guys
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"Klaatu...Verata...Nicht--cough, cough, cough!"

Oh they would! Beautiful babies. Alas, I have a gorgeous female, and the male has gone on. Now I'll just have to find someone who will trade for a beautiful blotched king, preferably one that is able to breed by next spring. *ah well*

I still keep hoping she's gravid though she's eating like a pig and has shed twice since she was bred. I can still cross my fingers and hope for some retained sperm.

And the only keeper from her first clutch was a female. So I have two females, and no males.

Here's an old pic of Yertyl, the keeper, I haven't been able to capture her colors in a decent photo. Perhaps I'll try again when I get home.

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~Sasheena

The influence of the Apalachicola kingsnake on South GA is debatable... I think the similarity is due to intergradation down in the known range of the AK, and the two subspecies evolving from a similar population of EK.

I saw an Apalachicola king on someone's table at Daytona last year that looked a lot like Zee's. It looked like a fat-banded eastern. Thinking about it now, I wish I had picked it up... I did however, pick up one of it's siblings, which has plenty of interband lightning. It's all natural variation, and in an intergade population, you'll see extremes where some animals look almost completely like one subspecies or the other. You can see it all in the same clutch of animals too... Zee's king could have come out of the same clutch as a completly patternless snake, I've seen it like that before.

>>The influence of the Apalachicola kingsnake on South GA is debatable... I think the similarity is due to intergradation down in the known range of the AK, and the two subspecies evolving from a similar population of EK.

What 2 subspecies evolved from Eastern Kingsnakes ? Kingsnakes dont know state borders Im sure Easterns from Northern Florida cross the border all the time and vice versa so to think that Apalachicola influence doesnt reach S. Georgia isn't far reaching at all and is likely. In the Common Kingsnake book published by AVS there is a photo by Bill Love of a Eastern that looks identical to Zee's and its caption reads something like natural intergrade from S. Georgia.I'll try and scan a pic of it tonight and post it.

>>I saw an Apalachicola king on someone's table at Daytona last year that looked a lot like Zee's. It looked like a fat-banded eastern. Thinking about it now, I wish I had picked it up... I did however, pick up one of it's siblings, which has plenty of interband lightning. It's all natural variation, and in an intergade population, you'll see extremes where some animals look almost completely like one subspecies or the other. You can see it all in the same clutch of animals too... Zee's king could have come out of the same clutch as a completly patternless snake, I've seen it like that before.

I agree but I will say Ive raised more than a few "Blotched Kings" that started off black as coal and then went thru ontogenetic change some more than others but they all did. I would curious to see if anyone has a known "Blotched King" that has no interband lightening and if so post a pic please.

Keith
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>>>>I would curious to see if anyone has a known "Blotched King" that has no interband lightening and if so post a pic please.

Will you define specifically what interband lightening means.

sometimes I feel dumb for not knowing what things mean... then I feel "dumber" for not asking for the definition.

So I'm asking. And for fun, I'll post one of my favorite blotched king pics.

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~Sasheena

in the darker or blotched areas on the back of the snake, like the one in your picture, are speckled. We call that interband lightning, because we like using fancy words like that.

Hey Sasheena

Interbands are the areas between the crossbars. The internands on your King there are the dark areas. The lightening would be ontogenetic change where lighter pigment reveals itself with every shed a little at a time. Your animal pictured if you got it as a hatchling probably was black and orange and as it grew the black areas get lighter and lighter giving it a speckled look.

Keith

>>>>>>I would curious to see if anyone has a known "Blotched King" that has no interband lightening and if so post a pic please.
>>
>>Will you define specifically what interband lightening means.
>>
>>sometimes I feel dumb for not knowing what things mean... then I feel "dumber" for not asking for the definition.
>>
>>So I'm asking. And for fun, I'll post one of my favorite blotched king pics.
>>
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>>~Sasheena

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>>Hey Sasheena

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~Sasheena

>>What 2 subspecies evolved from Eastern Kingsnakes ? Kingsnakes dont know state borders Im sure Easterns from Northern Florida cross the border all the time and vice versa so to think that Apalachicola influence doesnt reach S. Georgia isn't far reaching at all and is likely. In the Common Kingsnake book published by AVS there is a photo by Bill Love of a Eastern that looks identical to Zee's and its caption reads something like natural intergrade from S. Georgia.I'll try and scan a pic of it tonight and post it.

I meant the South GA population of Eastern king, and the Apalachicola king. What I'm trying to say, is that they came from the same animal. Maybe phenotype would have been a better word... The AK's range seems to be really limited to just a small area in N FL, parts of a few counties... kings from parts of Leon County show strong AK influence, but once you get closer to GA, they look like straight-up easterns. I'm sure kings travel over the border all the time, but I don't think they often travel 20 miles just to meet the other subspecies' range in another state. I mean, it's possible the influence is there, but I doubt it. You've seen my female N FL eastern from Columbia County, she looks every bit like a S GA animal, but where she came from is a bit closer to the known range of Floridana than it is to "goini". I'd like to see the picture you are referring, and what county it came out of. The intergrade status on the animal may just be the personal opinion of Bill Love, or the author of the book, and may or may not hold any merit.

>>I agree but I will say Ive raised more than a few "Blotched Kings" that started off black as coal and then went thru ontogenetic change some more than others but they all did. I would curious to see if anyone has a known "Blotched King" that has no interband lightening and if so post a pic please.

The snake I saw was a 30" yearling, and looked a lot like what Zee's king looks like. I wish I had purchased it then.

>>I meant the South GA population of Eastern king, and the Apalachicola king. What I'm trying to say, is that they came from the same animal. Maybe phenotype would have been a better word... The AK's range seems to be really limited to just a small area in N FL, parts of a few counties... kings from parts of Leon County show strong AK influence, but once you get closer to GA, they look like straight-up easterns. I'm sure kings travel over the border all the time, but I don't think they often travel 20 miles just to meet the other subspecies' range in another state. I mean, it's possible the influence is there, but I doubt it. You've seen my female N FL eastern from Columbia County, she looks every bit like a S GA animal, but where she came from is a bit closer to the known range of Floridana than it is to "goini". I'd like to see the picture you are referring, and what county it came out of. The intergrade status on the animal may just be the personal opinion of Bill Love, or the author of the book, and may or may not hold any merit.

The only way to truly know if any snake is an intergrade is to breed them yourself. I dont know of any genetic tests that say this snake is half this and half that it just isnt there in any specific detail. What they do use are characteristics and range maps. I will email Bill and ask him if he knows the locality of this snake also. As far as your Columbia Co. king that county borders Georgia so that makes alot of sense that it looks alot like many of the GA Kings Ive seen. Think about it this way if you dont think Kings move much, how did they get to where they are ? They move and expand their boundaries until natural barriers stop them i.e. Mountains another larger predator, habitat etc... Have you read Means and Krysko's paper on Kingsnakes ? There is another paper out of Tulane University which in more detail explains Kingsnake migration down to where they came from and how they moved etc... When I get home from work I'll get that paper for you its not online but I can probably scan it maybe and post it up but its pretty long.

>>>>I agree but I will say Ive raised more than a few "Blotched Kings" that started off black as coal and then went thru ontogenetic change some more than others but they all did. I would curious to see if anyone has a known "Blotched King" that has no interband lightening and if so post a pic please.
>>
>>The snake I saw was a 30" yearling, and looked a lot like what Zee's king looks like. I wish I had purchased it then.
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This one is a (now gravid) female eastern king from the Lake City Fl. locale. It almost reminds me of a weakly marked OBK! But I loved the way she looks and bought her and a male from the same area about a month ago. They are both WC, but bred together at my house and should have eggs soon . . .

Enjoy

AND THANKS for all the educational information/opinions about the blotched intergrades from all of you. It IS very intersting. These guys sometimes CAN produce surprise babies as some of you already know! That's what makes breeding these guys so exciting!

I would love to read/have a copy of Krysko's paper if you could get a copy for me as well Keith, I would be grateful!

Take care, & THANKS
ZEE

They are not blotched intergrades... a lot closer to floridana than they are to goini.

n

Here is that pic. I even scanned the original caption. I emailed Bill and asked if he remembers the county info on this snake.

Keith

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looks a lot like Zee's, though the coloration is different. I'd really like to know where exactly it was from. It's about as wide-banded as that young South GA male you have, isn't it?

Yeah pretty close in width. I talked with Bill and he said his friend the late Art Meyer of Tallahassee collected it about 20
years ago and he told him he collected it in Georgia.

Keith
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Here are a couple of pics showing just how "Blotched King" some Easterns from this line look after a little inbreeding. No Blotched Kings were ever used in the mix ever and Kevin never got one that looked like the I have until he bred one of the daughters back as he had always used unrelated animals. Maybe its just a recessive trait or something as these are similar to "Blotched Kings" in looks but are also different as well.

One of the animals Kevin Enge produced last year from back breeding a female from his Statenville male and his Tift Co. female back to her Father the Statenville, GA male . All are pictured on my site.

This is my male produced by Will Still from offspring from Kevins Statenville, GA male and Tift Co., GA female . So the above snake would be mines Uncle/cousin I guess.

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Here is my photo family tree I put together.

1 Statenville, GA male. A huge 6' animal and father and grandfather to the whole line

2 Tift Co., GA female. A very large 5'+ animal thats Grandmother and Mother to the whole line

3 Offspring to 1 and 2 and parents to 4 and 5

4 2003 male offspring to pair 3

5 2003 female offpring to pair 3 and sibling to 4

6 2003 male produced by K. Enge. Cousin/Uncle to 4 and 5

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you have a pic of the male?

The paper in question is

Systematics Of The Common Kingsnake,Lampropletis getula (Linnaeus) By Richard M. Blaney

Ill photocopy it and send it to you and Nick if you guys are interested. Just send me your mailing address via email.

Keith
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I'd be interested in seeing that paper. I've read Krysko's and Means' paper on Apalachicola kings, and I agreed at first, but I find myself more in disagreement now.

I still disagree though, based on my own experience seeing population variation in Florida's kingsnakes over very short distances. Is it wide-bands=goini influence? IMO that's a weak trait to go by.

Isnt that what you basis is for Zee's animal looking like a Blotched to you is the wide bands ? If not what other characteristics do you see in it that make you say it might be an intergrade ?

Keith
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The coloration to me is what I would expect in a blotched king. The wide bands are indicative of goini influence, but I've seen easterns from SC, and had one from SC with bands that wide. At first glance, I admit, the snake looked like an eastern to me... it still does... it's still in the range of what I've seen blotched kings to be though. I was having a conversation with Len Krysko last year about goini, and we were both saying that a lot of them come out looking like nice wide-banded easterns, without any of the speckling.

The simple fact is it could be either or and to speculate is sorta of pointless as only the guy who produced it can fill in the details. If you guys want that paper let me know its a very interesting it goes into all the subs of Getula.

Keith
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