Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ignorance is part of the learning process. Most people, when getting into herps, go by what the ready-made store care sheets say...and sand is nearly always recommended, right up their with walnut and fine grade bark. So, if one has no prior experience--it is natural to take what the ready-made store care sheets say as educated facts.

We've spoken with several managers at our local Pet Smart, and we will be pursuing this further.

Now, if sand, walnut and fine grade bark are the main cause to impaction for small gecko's and lizards-- why not write or speak to the pet-stores and breeders who advocate the use of these substrates? Why no gather hard facts and try to convince the other half of the hazards? If the beginner's fact sheets that are commercially available are wrong and misleading in care, then some thing should be done about it, no?

Educating beginners correctly, and we were/are all beginners, could avoid the high costs of treating impaction, the emotional stress of caring for a impacted gecko and the emotional pain of a loss due to impaction.
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0.1.0 African Fat Tail
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Flat Tail House Gecko
1.0.0 Long Tail Grass Lizards
1.0.0 Betta (Past away 3/17/04)
1.1.0 Cats

fine grade play sand for sub adult and adult leopard geckos IS FINE......... they could get compacted on ANYTHING you put as a substrate.. baby's and hatchlings should be kept on paper towels until they reach sub adult or adult hood.

walnut and wood chips are not an acceptable substrate..........

as far as those calcisand substrates i would assume if only adults and sub adults were kept on them they would be fine.

the sand debate is not about the sand........ it's about husbandry..... if you cage is not kept clean and can clump up, not good
if you need them food the burrows in the sand , no good
if you do not use proper hides or temps and the gecko feels the need to dig and possibly get sand its mouth.... it is not about the sand its about being responsible enough in your husbandry to keep animals on this substrate........... if you are not or can not meet the needs of your gecko 100% do not use sand... thats it.....

blah same subect over and over and over... you all are going to debate this til you are blue in the face..........
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

I'm sorry but I really cannot believe some people who won't take the words of others who've been through the experience of having a sand impacted leopard gecko that was otherwise extremely healthy.. had all requirements met.. and still died due to sifted play sand. I have a friend... she kept half her leopards on sand and had planned to change the rest over after she observed if they were doing well or not. Within a month... she had 6 dead leopard geckos from impaction caused by sand...and she was feeding from dishes... Sand is not fine... take a look at a leo's natural habitat..there may be sand but where do they spend most of their time? On rocks... rock outcroppings and scrub areas... natural slate and skree areas..crevices. Sand isn't always a quick killer but it can certainly shorten your geckos life considerably. What doesn't kill immediately.. clogs up the intenstinal tract.. possibly for years... slow buildup and finally death from a lack of ability to digest properly due to the lining of the intenstines being coated in a layer of sand that the cillia have grabbed ahold of. Sand kills.. its pure and simple.. any particulate substrate can possibly kill... Newspaper... paper towel... as long as its not tore into little pieces presents a MUCH lower chance of complication...Not to mention.. paper CAN be digested and expelled... Or at least broke down enough to not present a problem for expellation. These are LIVING BEINGS we're dealing with here people.. and as such we owe them the best care we can provide without endangering them because of our aesthetic or ease of caretaking preferences.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith), 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short) and 1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

all i have to say about this is.. was a necropsy done to diagnose the deaths of these animals both biological and histopathology?
we can suspect all we want about what our leos died from BUT unless a necropsy has been done, as far as im conerned she could have had crypto and cocidia in the group..
these animals have been kept on sand for YEARS with out problem and impaction sounds like a good excuse but if no necropsy is done to show otherwse it may have even been just dumb luck
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

Necropsies were done on all six animals and it was determined that they died from an obstruction of the intenstinal tract... that obstruction was sand...
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith), 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short) and 1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

does not mean that it was simply because they were on sand that they got impacted. A necropsy won't necessarily tell you why they were impacted....which is more important than knowing that they were impacted. People have been keeping dozens of leos on sand for over ten years without a single problem, but those 6 got impacted within a month just because they were on sand....does that sound logical? Sand is the constant...having problems with some leos, but not with others, suggests that something else is causing impaction with sand, and not just the sand itself.
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

well, while you are definately right that there are a host of factors that may "cause" impaction, *sand is definately not constant*. The finer the sand, the less the probability of impaction. most importantly, the chemical make-up of the sand is immensely important. i do not trust silicates, although studies are few and far between.

if using sand (or other "impactable" substrates), i recommend avoiding soft bodied foods. The polysaccharide chitin serves important hormonal regulatory functions, but it is also is an excellent way of preventing impaction similar to the function of fiber in mammals. Unmolted mealworms and male crickets are excellent sources (as well as their molted and female counterparts, to a lesser extent).

I just meant that using sand was the only constant. I was just making the point that the sand itself isn't necessarily the problem...and a necropsy probably won't tell you what is. Thanks for pointing that out though, the type of sand can make a difference. Intersting point with the chitin as well...I never would have thought of that!
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

I guess I just don't understand why people would even want to expose their pet to a possible risk by using sand. Aesthetics over safety is not how its supposed to be.. especially when there are viable alternatives that do NOT carry a life or death risk to them.. These are our pets...thinking.. feeling animals that deserve the best we can give them... and while some may not have a problem.. there's enough others who do to support the idea that sand is not the best for them to be on.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith), 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short) and 1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

It isn't that we aren't "taking the word" of someone who has had the bad experience of a pet gecko getting impacted, but our experience has been different. I personally have about 1/8" of sand that covers the bottom of my gecko enclosures. Most people aren't talking about keeping a 2" deep layer of sand. Most of the problems with impaction may be due to other factors! Are the geckos properly hydrated, fed the right size prey, allowed free access to a dish of calcium, etc... I agree that most keepers provide some, if not all, of these criteria; but a lot of other factors could cause death or impaction. In their natural habitat they will also dig burrows in the sand or feed off of sand, they are equiped to pass small amounts of substrate through their digestive tract(as all predators are!) A leopard gecko is NOT equipped to pass large amounts of substrate through their digestive system. I believe you meant to say "villi" not "cilia" traps the particles. There are no ciliated cells in the lower digestive tract. I also agree it is our duty as caretakers to provide the best care for any animals we keep. For me, this includes providing a habitat that is as close to their natural habitat as I can provide. As I stated in the (several) posts on this subject, I have never had any incident involving impaction with ANY of my animals in almost 10 years. Everyone who is keeping leos will need to decide what is right for them & their geckos, information about the experience of other herpers is how they should get their information. Please do not judge or condemn those of us who have chosen sand as a substrate.

mnmbn
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

as i mentioned before...i know that MOST impactions occur due to poor husbandry...but thats not the case for spikensquirt...they love their gex to death and provide hides, correct temps, calcium dish, etc etc etc....spike still got impacted...of course the majority of people that follow husbandry guidelines and use fine grade playing sand are doing well...but THERE ARE THOSE CASES where its really not up to the owner if his/her gecko is gonna start eating/licking/ingesting sand for whatever reason...i have used walnut shells...*which now im strongly against*...and ive reared 2 generations of geckos on it WITH NO PROBLEMS...HOWEVER...knowing what it has done to other people's animals..i quickly switched to paper towels...i followed husbandry requirements and everything was fine...but it sux when u try and do ur best for ur gecko and lose it because of something soooo stupid...
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"you won't know success if you haven't failed..."-eric chen
1.1.1 Hi-Yellow Leopard Geckoes
0.0.2 Blizzards
0.1.0 Western (Plains) Hognose Snake
0.1 Boxer Dog

I can't beleive its still being debated! GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZ!

Oh and have a nice day.

Actually the caresheet I was given from a local large chain petstore...where I got Asia....It has reptile carpet on it for flooring...most stuff on it was correct....and then I came to the temps...the temps on there sheet were 100 during the day and 85-90 at night....and ofcourse thats way to high.

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KRISTI Mommy 2 Autumn Rose (daughter) 2 1/2 yrs
Reign Michael(son) 6 months
Duncan (Budgie) almost 7 years
Asia (Juvie Leopard Gecko)
Russia (NEW Baby Albino Cornsnake)
OH, And Ron the geckos #1 FAN!!! (owned by BlizzardGecko)

i talked to the petco two streets down from where i lived...i told them this and told them that...that they need to have a humid box...but they said "oh we spray them everyday"..then i said u shouldn't use sand...and he frankly replied...how can we sell something that we ourselves aren't even confident of using...?..the product won't sell...so frankly they don't care about how the animals are...thats actually a very small part of their revenue...it all boils down to commercial products...
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"you won't know success if you haven't failed..."-eric chen
1.1.1 Hi-Yellow Leopard Geckoes
0.0.2 Blizzards
0.1.0 Western (Plains) Hognose Snake
0.1 Boxer Dog