Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, here's a genetics question for all you big dawg burm breeders out there.

It looks like triple hets and possibly even quad hets are coming around the corner for certain morphs so I'm curious, how are they made?

Here's the type I'm curious about...
triple het for granite, labrinth and green

Ok, so I'm wondering how this works. If you breed any two of these morphs together...doesn't that make the babies double hets for the two morphs?
If so, how do you make triples? I know it's bound to be several breedings down the line but....
let's say now you have double hets for granite and green...if you bred them to a labrinth, would they all then be possible triples for all three traits or would there be some definites in that group?

And if you factor albino in there to make quad hets...here we go!
Just some fun genetics stuff.
Thought it might spark some fun on the forum.

Amanda Rose

You are right in the aspect that it will take several generations. I will use the scenerios I will be working with and you should be able to understand the variances.
I plan on taking an albino labyritnh and breed it with an albino green. This will result in albino's double het for green and labyrinth. I am going to do this with two completely different parents so I will have two completely unrelated clutches. Then once they are of size I will breed a male from one clutch to two females from the other and vica versa. This will give me four clutches from the double hets and I should get some offspring that show all three traits. I am starting with the albino lines because they are readily available. If you were to start with a granite labyrinth green then you would have to start at square one and create all the steps, so you are looking at adding about five years or so before you would get the desired results. Hope this helps a little. todd

Thanks to everyone's replies thus far...
Todd...on yours though just so I get it straight...

With your four clutches of albinos being DH for lab and green:
you said you'll end up getting some babies that display all three traits. How would you know any baby has all THREE traits when patternless has NO pattern and lab has a definite pattern?
I'm probably making that way too complicated but I'm trying to see based of what you are doing, to do my long term triple het project. I don't mind if it takes an extra 5 years or so. This is a for fun project. ;D hehe

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

Well, that is one of the interesting things about it and the fact that I know of only one person to cuccessfully triple up the traits amkes it more exciting. Since patternless' do have a pattern as a baby then I am expecting them to show a slice of this trait as a juvenile. What I expect will happen is I will get a variety of offspring. I will get albino's that are 66% possible double het for green and labyrinth, I will get albino labyrinths that are 66% het for green, I will get albino greens that are 66% het for labyrinth, and I should get a few albino green labyrinths. Basically I am going off the theory that the albino green labyriths will look drastically different then the others and thus I will be able to correctly identify them.
I plan on tripling all the traits up. Albino granite labyrinths, albino granite greens, and albino green labyrinths. If I am successfull in these projects then I might try the quad but I think these will take many years to successfully accomplish so we will just have to wait and see. Todd

Wel,
triple hets albino patternless x granite
The normal looking juveniles carrying the albino,patternless and granite gen.

greetings from the Netherlands
Nico

And you need full genotypes to create 100% triple hets

cheers
Nico

Ok so in addition to what I asked below....

You were saying that in my wanting to do lab x green x granite:

Ok so first I have a lab and green and get DH for lab x green offspring. I breed them (all not related either) to make some babies who show both traits of green and lab (again, would like to know what that would look like, either a weird pattern or ?? would be very cool I'm sure either way).

So integrating my third element, the granite...would I breed a granite into the DH for lab x green babies or one of the babies that exhibits both lab and green from the DH breeding? For a baby that exhibits both traits..would that be considered a green labrinth? If so, I could see how breeding that to a granite would yield babies who are then triple het for granite x lab and green??? Trying to make sense of this fascinating subject. ;D

Hugs!

Amanda

Ok I would start off with a male and a female labyrinth and a male and a female green. Ensure that all four are unrelated. I would breed the male labby with the female green and the male green with the female labby. When those babies hatch you will get two complete clutches of double hets for green and labyrinth. I would keep 1.2 from each clutch. This will allow you to breed four unrelated clutches of the double hets. Raise those six snakes to maturity and 18-24 months later I would breed the male from clutch one with both females from clutch two and male from clutch two to the two females from clutch 1. Out of these four clutches you will get normals that are 66% het for green and labyrinth, labyrinths that are 66% het for green, greens that are 66% het for labyritnh, and green labyrinths. Like I stated in my other response the labyrinth greens should look extremely different. I would guess that they would show the labyrinth trait with perhaps some irregular spotting such as juvenile greens usually exhibit, but that is just a speculation.
Well I would keep atleast two of those green labyrinths and buy some granites and start the process over again. Breed the green labyrinths with the granites and you will create normals triple het for green, labyrinth, and granite. The reason I am starting with the albino phase of each morph is becasue it will allow me to mix three traits and only be utilizing double hets instead of the triples. For example by breeding an albino labby with an albino green I will get all albino's double het for green and labyrinth. So following the smae principles I gave you as a guide, the step that will create your double traited snakes will infact create my first generation triples. I hope this isn't too confusing. Let me know if you need me to clarify anything else for you adn enyone let me know if I have made some major error in my calculations. Todd

I would love to see the pics of a Green Granite Burm. I know of 1. I can guarantee that it is NOT for sale. Also, Todd, I have a question for you. How is it possible to have a quad het. I can understand a poss quad het. First, you are not going to get a Green Granite. The only one produced was from a Triple Het to Tripe Het breeding. There were a few freaks in there and the Green Granite was 1 of them. There is no possible way to get a true quad het. You can get all the poss quad hets you want. If you breed a Albino Green to a Laby Granite(which again does not exist), you will get quad hets. There is no way possible, that I have ever heard of, to get a quad het Burm.

The morphs are:
Albino
Green
Granite
Laby
Blonde(not yet reproduced)
Fader(not proven...yet.)

4 of the 6 are pattern morphs, and two have never been reproduced. You cannot combine 2 different pattern morphs. There is one case of this happening, and it is owned by Jay Owens. I will be more than happy to get some pics or post a link if you would like. Therefore your quad het theory will more than likely never happen. You could work on it forever, and it will more than likely never happen. I am not trying to piss you off, and sorry if I have, but I would like to hear how you are going to produced these quad hets since your first option, Green Granite, does not exist(well except for Jay's).

That is all I have to say about thait,
Jason

you have not upset me on this debate. Your theory is based off the fact that it really hasn't been done yet just as mine is based off the fact that since it hasn't been done yet then it should be possible. You can produce multiple pattern morphs. You stated that it isn't possible but look at the balls. They have created an assortment of designer snakes through the means of selective breeding. You are righ tin the fact that the only person to every come close to a triple traited burm is Jay Owens. He created an albino green labyrinth as well as a green labyrinth last year I believe. Like I explained earlier I am utilizing the albino morph since it is already available in all three other morphs. I explained how you would get the triple traited snakes. Well along this same line, if I bred a albino green labyrinth with lets say an albino granite green, then all my potential offspring would would be albino greens double het for granite and labyrinth. Now I just have to start over and breed the double hets. By continueing to work everything off of double hets I will increase my success rate intensely. Every egg should have a 1 in 16 chance of producing the quad traited snake, as compared to doing a quad het snake wich I believe would result in 1-64 or maybe even a 1-128. By combing the triple traited morphs together it allows a much larger chance of success. Anyway, these are just fun projects that I want to try over the next many years. No one knows what they would look like and who knows they might be incredible. And once again I respect your opinion but I think it is sound reasoning that this can be done. No one will know until it is attempted, correct. Todd

I hear what you are saying Todd, but when you breed a double het to a double het, whether it be the same traits or different, the resulting offspring is poss het. Not double or triple or quad het. The only way to produce a triple het is one snake that is double homo, albino green, to another snake that is single homo, granite. These are just examples. I am not seeing a possibility in producing quad hets, or triple homo animals, but it would be interesting to see. I went back to try and find the pics of the Green Granite, and the pics are dead. The links are no good. Maybe Jay will come by here and give us his feedback. I say it is not possible, but good luck to you. Let us know how it ends up. It will be a looooong time before it is done if it is possible, but I will be waiting to hear about it. I can just imagine what a quad het would look like, and I will probably have to imagine for another 10 years before it is done. You are talking about getting quad hets over 4-6 generations right?

Jason

I follow your arguement to some extent however I think you are mistaken about one thing. We will go back to my previous example of breeding an albino green labyrinth with an albino green granite. now the offspring of such a breeding would be homo albino, homo green, het for labyrinth, and het for granite. Now when you breed unrelated offspring (I would produce four clutches from two different fathers) together this is the following projected offspring as figured by advanced genetics wizards(geneticswizard.com):
6.25% albino greens
12.5% albino greens het for granite
6.25%albino green granites
12.5% albino green het for labyrinth
25% albino green het for labyrinth and het for granite
6.25% albino green labyrinths
12.5% albino green labyrinths het for granite
6.25% albino green granite labyrinths.

So as you can see by breeding double homo and double hets together you can produce a multiple of double hets 66% possible het for the other two traits, triple traited that are also 66% het for the fourth trait(two versions of this, albino green labyrinths possible het for granite as well as albino green granites 66% possible het for labyrinth) as well as the saught after quad traited offspring.
Using the 6.25% figure then on a lets say 45 egg clutch then if you are lucky then 2.8% of them should be born homo for all four traits. Since the fraction can not be born thenif I could just obtain one from all four clutches thenI would get the initial breeding stock desired. I will expand on this later but I have to go for now. let me know what you think of this. Todd

I understand what you are saying Todd, and hypothetically, it could happen. I am just questioning the burms ability to display multiple pattern afflicting genes. For example Green is a pattern afflicting gene that makes the burm "patternless", Granite is pattern afflicting gene that, I don't even know how to describe it. Labyrinth is a pattern afflicting gene that kinda pushed the burms sides up and makes the "saddles" on top elongated. I have never seen a triple homo burm, and I doubt I ever will. I believe that it would be a ver interesting project for you. Good Luck.

Jason

And whoever said you won't use math past high school!

All this het double granite with a twist is makin my head hurt. No one has ever explained to me what "het" means so I'll be the idiot and ask. What does het mean? Also, what does the 1.1 and all that mean when explaining what kind of snake you have. I'll never breed snakes so I never REALLY got into the lingo but it would be interesting to know.

DZ

You are not an idiot for not knowing all this. You just have never been informed on the specifics of all this and let me tell you genetics can get really confusing but your questions are relatively easy to answer. Most morphs (and in fact all the proven traits with burms, albino, green, labyrinth, and granites) are simple recessive genetic traits. This means that in order for the animal to show the said trait that it needs to have received the gene from both of its parents. This is called homozygous and they show the trait. For example if you breed an albino with an albino the all the offspring will have received the gene form both its parents and thus all of the offspring will be albino. Now if the snake only receives the gene from one of its parents then it will look normal however it will carry one gene for the said trait(albino in this example). When the snake looks normal but carries a gene for a trait then it is called heterozygous or het for short. So basically het means that it carries the gene for a specific trait but only one gene and therefore does not show the trait.
As for the numbers at the beginning of a snake(1.1 albino burms) it is a explanation of the sexes of the snakes. The first number represents the males nad the second number represents females and if there is a third number present then it represents a number of snakes that are unsexed. For example, if I say I have 2.4.10 albino burmese Pythons I am saying that I have 2 male burms, 4 female burms, and 10 unsexed burms. Hope this helps, Todd

Thanx!

Sorry, I forgot your comments about the Ball Pythons. A majority of the morphs that have been mixed are Co-dom traits. Like Ralph Davis' Phantom Lesser. We are not talking about co-dom traits in burms, unless you want to consider the granite trait co-dom, because there are none. There is no gene in burms that is co-dom and that is why you see thousands of differnt ball python morphs. You have the Platinum, Butter, Pastel, if you want me to continue I will, that are all co-dom. Until there is a proven co-dom trait in burms, a quad het, in my opinion would be impossible.

Jason

You guys should look around and see what has been done in other species. Silky chickens are homozygous for seven mutants, and Chinese with no knowledge of genetics did that over a thousand years ago.

An animal that is het for four different recessive mutant genes isn't impossible, just difficult to prove. Take a normal-looking male that you think could be quad het. Mate it to 3 females: one granite, one labyrinth, and one albino green. If any granites come out of the first female and any labyrinths from the second and any albinos and greens from the third, then you've proven that you've got a quad het male.

And remember that genotype and phenotype are different things. Making a snake that is homozygous for three pattern mutations isn't impossible. The real question is whether the combination will look different enough from green to be worth the time and trouble of producing it.

Paul Hollander

hey guys,

Ok, I bit. I bought 1. triple het (alb. green and gran.) last season and am now anxiously awaiting the arrival of .1 albino double het (green and gran.) Now, this project has me so interested because of exactly what Jason is saying. How can two two pattern affecting genes (that seemingly do exactly the opposite of one another) express themselves phenotypically in the same animal? My animals' breeder, Koleen Jenks assured me that one has been produced and is alive and doing well. Now I here from you guys that Jay (Vella???) produced one. I am insanely interested in what this animal looks like, does anyone have or know where I can find a picture of it? according to my best calculations, when mine reproduce I should have about a 75%(per 24 eggs) chance of hatching out 1 green granite and the same of an albino green granite. needlesss to say, I'm holding my breath already. at any rate, The triple het project is totally facsinating. there are are close to if not more than 20 variations that can be produced from a single pairing good luck to anyone else working with these projects!

Andy

The person we were speaking of that has produced them is Jay Owens. If you go to the Bob Clark Forums he is a moderator there and he produced a granite patternless as well as an albino granite patternless I believe last year from the same clutch. Go there and ask "DR. Owens" and ask him to post a pic of them or search the archives. I have seen the pics last September and they were quite impressive. You could definitely see all the traits, but they were juvenile snakes and I still am uncertain on whether or not that the patternless will overwhelm the granite as an adult. I would go and inquire for you but I am not welcome on that forum. Anyway, I am also very interested in this project and will produce them so we will just have to wait and see. Good luck with your projects. Todd