Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We have lost much this week. We will loose much more when the rest of the pictures and the video comes out. Instead of being something better, we have shown ourselves to be something worse. No American or coalition captives were ever tortured, humiliated and photographed like this. We have managed to make the muslem insurgence look civilized by comparison. A sad state of affairs for the invading army looking to bring civility to a tortured people.

Rumsfeld will go, but not only because of this. His war was based on faulty intelligence, we know that now. His planning was equally faulty, and many warned us of that fact. He sent tropps in that were not properly trained and not properly protected. As many as half of the US dead died because they didn't have the armour they needed.

The only good news is that this will cost Bush the election. Our country was gradually seeing the light, gradually turning against Bush. This will put many over the edge. The photos and the video that will come out will simply turn people's stomachs. People will finally start to understand the moral repugnancy of this administration's actions.

No American or coalition captives were ever tortured, humiliated and photographed like this.

What? How short is your memory exacty?

You don't remember the coalition having members killed, burned, mutilated and then hung off a bridge? (among other things)

Or are you trying to argue that these people, who were involved in delivering food, weren't technically like the people in "those pictures" because they weren't captured alive, but that they were killed by maiming/etc. so that it doesn't count, since capture never happened?

Or the military personnel that have been found mutilated so badly that they couldn't even be identified by their faces?

The group were shot and burnt in their cars, before a cheering crowd dismembered the corpses and hung two of them from a bridge.
The corpses were dragged from the wreckage and television pictures showed one burnt body being kicked and stamped on, while at least two were tied to cars and driven through the city, witnesses said.

Adults and children hacked the bodies to pieces, before lynching two of the charred remains from a bridge spanning the Euphrates River.

And, here's another 4 mutilated bodies found near Baghdad.

Efforts are under way to identify the remains, the officials said.

And another 2 that were dragged out of their cars and mutilated.

Two foreigners were dragged out of their cars and brutally mutilated by angry crowds in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, on Thursday.

We capture our enemies alive, and they kill and mutilate people that are there to help them, by delivering food. And that makes us so much worse?

The really inportant thing is, Bush will be re-elected. As hard as the media has tried, his poll numbers keep going up and Kerry's keep going down. And even if he isn't re-elected, the only other viable choice at this point is Kerry. Kerry is both behind this war (he voted for it), he has stated repeatedly that Iraq has WMDs (until he started his run for pres.) and he said he would send more troops to Iraq.

Sounds to me like your hatred for Bush has over-ridden your ability to logically think things out. Why get rid of Bush when Kerry will do, and has said, the exact same things? Is it because the one thing Kerry will do differently is raise your taxes, and Bush did the opposite? Are you that much of a sadist, that you want to be taxed even more?

Rodney

The problem here is thatnow you are saying that we hould not vote for Kerry as he will do the same thing as Bush is doing now....and raise Taxes?

Lets try this train of thought. We have had four years of Bush-so we know what he is (and what is scary is he is making me miss Clinton...and I didn't think that was possible).

The biggest question with Kerry is...We really don't know what he will do till he gets into office. Campaigns are the high water mark of mis-information in American politics.

In the last four years I see my friends losing jobs. Our country shamed in a war we shouldn't be in...A tax break? (yes...but countered by high fuel costs that are raising the prices on everything).

Went to the grocery store last night. Milk is $4.75 a gallon.

This does not sound like the man in charge is doing his job right.

Makes me want to risk a change.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

To bad Bush and Kerry are one in the same power hungry megalomaniac, As Rodney stated their voting records are d@mn near parallel. Its when you go behind the scenes does one get the real picture.

At the risk of sounding like some conspiracy theorist, both of these men are part of secret organizations of the "well to do". "Skull & Bones" as an example. They refuse to talk about this in detail, yet acknowledge that they are members.

Its kinda scary to know that our president, and even his opponent, are working for the same goal, and in the interest of a select few. Whats even more scary is that 90% of the population don't give a SH!T......

Their are so many levels to every action made by the president, or anyone holding such authority. As history shows, most actions are made to BENEFIT the small group backing the leader primarily. The needs of the basic citizen comes secondary. A balance must be obtained in order to satisfy the citizen, and ONLY because they make up the majority. Revolution is a product of poor balance. They go to great deal to hide their actions, only acting out of necessity. Not out of sympathy.

At this point in history, with the abundance of information sharing that takes place every second, It grows harder and harder for anyone to do something without it being noticed, and published. 10 fold if your someone in the spot light, like the leader of a country.

The U.S. along with just about every other country engages in whats called "Psyops" or Physiological Operations. This is just a Fancy word for Propaganda. Selling a Good guy/Bad guy Image to people, in order for them to carry out your will, is one of the OLDEST techniques of warfare, if not a building block of civilization. We go to great lengths to show how Morally, and Spiritually Superior we are to ever enemy we choose to engage. They only gain that opportunity to be treated as people once they submit to our standards, and remain passive. Psyops is not only conducted on the enemy but also on the citizens form the county initiating the attack. In our case the war was sold to us using scare tactics, about immanent threats. Was sold to the enemy's citizens using morality, "we'll treat you better". Both turning out to be lies. No need to list examples, I'm sure we are all aware.

When it comes down to the elections, flip a coin, same guy...

When it comes down to this war in Iraq.. Big Mistake!

~SoBeK~

I noticed that you said your friends have been loosing jobs for the last 4 years. The same thing happened here in Ca. People had been loosing their jobs for many months prior to Bush. Let's see, that coincides nicely with the stock market that had been crashing too--for the last 9 months of the Clinton administration. Then there was 9/11, a huge hit to the economy that might had been avoided if Clinton had taken Osama when he was offered to us.

Also notice that the economy is booming right now. New jobs are way up, unemployment is way down, the GNP is way up (best growth rate in 20 years), interest is way down. After inheriting a recession, and going through the devastating hit 9/11 made to our economy (both tourism and the travel industry) he turned our behemoth of an economy around with about a year in his administration to spare, all while waging a war on terrorism! And you don't like that?

How exactly, does raising taxes create jobs? I know a lot of ways that cutting taxes creates jobs, but how does raising taxes create jobs? Think businesses can hire people if their taxes go up so they don't have the money to make payroll? Think the public can buy more if they have less to spend? How much of that milk money you spent, went to taxes? (well over 50% I bet, after taxes are paid on the farmers income, property, feed, transportation, etc.) You think your milk prices will come down with higher taxes on the farmers production costs? Or maybe you think that if some farmers go out of business with higher taxes that the reduction in milk supply will cause lower milk prices? I just don't get liberal thinking when it comes to economics. (Or almost any other subject for that matter!)

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Just so you know, I know the reason milk prices are up. It is because supply is low. Supply is low because dairy cows primarily come from Canada. We aren't importing them from Canada anymore due to "mad cow disease", so the number of dairy cows is slowly going down, and the milk supply is thus going down, plus feed prices are going up slightly. (though feed prices are a minor part of the milk price increase)

How would Kerry change this? Import more dairy cows from Canada and risk "mad cow disease" importation with them? What would "mad cow disease" do to milk prices if it got into the dairy farms? Prices would really go up, and then you would have something to complain about.

Rodney

Actually...if the economy is booming, we have yet to see any sign of it in Florida.

Our economic slump began shortly after 911 (not Bush's fault obviously...but the continuation of his policies have kept our economy down).

As for milk.....most people don't realise that Florida is a Dairy state.

Taxes are not what's raising the price...Increase fuel costs are...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

np
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No matter how hard you try you can't justify what's been done. Just because they have turned to barbarism doesn't make it all right for us to do it as well. That's not what America is about. Punish those responsible to the fullest extent of the law and try and make amends. America's turned into a hypocrite in the eyes of the world community.

No justification was intended.

Its just that its amazing to me, how we hold ourselves to a MUCH higher standard than our enemies. So high, that a deviation from this high standard, is condemned by almost everyone, while much worse atrocities from our enemies are give little notice, even given a pass, since we have grown to expect this kind of behavior from them.

For instance, Saddam killed and tortured his own people in MUCH higher numbers, but that side is never mentioned by the antiwar group that complains about the deaths of innocent Iraqis in this war. We have killed less than 1/3 of what Saddam would have, in the same time period as this war, and this is never mentioned. Saddam's regime cut out peoples tongues, ordered rapes, killings, mutilations. Saddam even took part in may of these. Now, compare that to some soldiers that broke our rules, and some have the gall to say that Rummy should resign? Because of something that he didn't know about and wasn't ordered as policy? I guess, using the same logic, every politician in history should have resigned, because somewhere in their constituency was someone who was a criminal, thus they are responsible for that persons illegal actions. Very high standards we hold ourselves to indeed. Or maybe I should say, more correctly, that the liberals hold the conservatives that are in power to a much higher standard, than they do themselves. (and vice-versa).

Seems to me, the liberals are far more worried about winning the presidency (after loosing it, the house, and the senate) than they are about winning this war on terror. One should never put internal politics above ones country, anymore than one should put our enemies soldiers lives above our own soldiers lives.

Rodney

rodney doesn't understand why rape, murder, and torture - even torture of young girls in front of their fathers - is such a "big deal". He's concerned that people are too hard on us for having such high standards. This tells us much about rodney.

The only good thing that will come out of this is that Bush will loose his job - thank god. (And Rumsfeld will to, but who really cares?)

When did I ever say anything like that?

Who, other than Saddam's regime, raped girls in front of their fathers because he didn't like their political viewpoint? And who was it that stopped this?

How can you compare "softening up" of the enemies we were holding, to get info from them, to try and save American's lives and win this war, with Saddam's regular practice of rape to control his people?

Did I miss something? Were American's accused of raping girls? I haven't seen that anywhere. There was an accusation of sodomy with a broom handle on a male prisoner. And I know that a prisoner stated that this abuse only happened to them after they targeted and attacked another "inmate" because he "ratted" some info. to the U.S. troops.

I just find it odd, that you are so concerned about some abuse on our part, that isn't sanctioned, but you couldn't care less about torture, mutilation, etc. on their part, that is sanctioned. (Do you work for the UN? Are you from one of the countries that are on the UN's civil rights committee? You know, the worst of the worst in the world when it comes to rights.)

Are you aware of the Mullahs and Clerics telling their flocks to try and kidnap female coalition members for the exclusive purpose of being sex slaves? Could you even imagine that kind of statement coming from one of our leaders?

(Yes, I imagine you could imagine that, since your hatred for Bush allows you to imagine many things that aren't there.)

Rodney

Who, other than Saddam's regime, raped girls in front of their fathers because he didn't like their political viewpoint? And who was it that stopped this?

I didn't say young girls were raped in front of their fathers, did I? The fact is, we may be seeing very unpleasant images of young girls being abused by American soldiers soon. And this is a horrible because it shows how truely wrong things have gone for us in Iraq.

You keep trying to "compare" the actions of the US prison guards with the actions of the Iraqis. You do so because thats all your heroes on rabid right wing radio can come up with - and you ape them here because you lack more original insights.

The truth is, the fact that you have resorted to comparing Americans to the Iraqis is actually a clear demonstration of how sad things are in Iraq, and in the depths you will go defending this pathetic administration's thoughtless actions.

"Well they did it to us!", rodney screams. Like an 8 year old fighting with his little sister. Since all of the supposed original reasons for fighting this war have been exposed as lies, the administration has resorted to the one reason we certainly DIDN'T start this war for: human rights. But now even this excuse has been taken away from Bush and his gang.

The point your missing about all this rodney, is that the few that commited these acts didn't think them up themselves. They were told what to do. And the people who told them what to do did so because they were told what to do - and so on. Get it?

The blame for this goes to the heart of the administrations thoughts, beliefs and actions. Second, these thoughts, beliefs and actions have done more damage to the US image and relations around the world than one can even comprehend. In other words rodney, ol boy, this is a big deal. And your sad attempts to reduce it to a little tit-for-tat demonstrates how unclear your thinking is.

You keep trying to "compare" the actions of the US prison guards with the actions of the Iraqis. You do so because thats all your heroes on rabid right wing radio can come up with - and you ape them here because you lack more original insights.

No, I do so because that is the only logical way to look at it. Compare before and after.

I didn't say young girls were raped in front of their fathers, did I? The fact is, we may be seeing very unpleasant images of young girls being abused by American soldiers soon

No, your exact quote was---rodney doesn't understand why rape, murder, and torture - even torture of young girls in front of their fathers - is such a "big deal".

This clearly implies that young girls are being tortured in front of their fathers by Americans.
I never read or saw anything like what you are saying. And to use the disclaimer MAY in your statement, just so you can bash America is nonsense. I could also make the claim that you MAY be a mass murderer, or a rapist, or any other horrible thing, but just because I use the word "may" doesn't make it right. Until you have evidence, you shouldn't be throwing around accusations and think it is fine to do so just because you preface the accusations with "may". Instead of making all these incredible accusations, why don't you just wait for the actual investigation and evidence to come forth?

Pulatus says, INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, UNLESS IT IS AN AMERICAN SOLDIER! ONE BAD SOLDIER MEANS THEY ARE ALL BAD! AND, AN ACCUSATION IS AS GOOD AS PROOF, IF YOU ARE ACCUSING ANYONE THAT IS IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION!

The truth is, the fact that you have resorted to comparing Americans to the Iraqis is actually a clear demonstration of how sad things are in Iraq, and in the depths you will go defending this pathetic administration's thoughtless actions.

No, not at all. That is how you measure progress. By comparing before and after. How can you tell if something is worse or better if you don't compare it to something else? It is thoughtless to think that, in a time of war, using abuse to get info. from the enemy to hopefully protect lives and win this war is somehow far worse than the killings, maiming, rapes, torture by Saddam that were occurring in huge numbers and in a time of peace. This is called reality.

The point your missing about all this rodney, is that the few that commited these acts didn't think them up themselves. They were told what to do. And the people who told them what to do did so because they were told what to do - and so on. Get it?

No, I don't get that at all. So if a police officer arrests a young person for selling drugs, we must prosecute that young persons father, grand father, and great grand father (not to mention all the mothers, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, etc.) because that young person couldn't possible have decided to sell drugs without those peoples input? (Oh, and don't forget his teachers, friends, etc.)

If there were orders to do so, then anyone giving those orders should be held accountable. Military personnel know that it is OK to disobey illegal orders! If no orders were given, then only those that committed these acts are accountable. That's probably the biggest problem with liberals and America today. Always trying to blame someone else for their actions. Whining like a child, "It's not my fault, society made me do it, he told me to, etc." "I poured hot coffee in my lap, so I will sue McDonalds.", "I'm suing because I am fat because I eat too much, it's not my fault!"

Ever heard of personal accountability? If you did, you most likely heard it from a conservative, liberals don't talk that way!

Rodney

Doesn't matter what Saddam did. It's what we do that counts. Just because he's crossed the line doesn't mean we can. Otherwise we become what they are.

I agree, but his line, in a time of peace, is far far more brutal than our line in a time of war. And our line being broken, was a violation of our rules. So you really can't compare the two. Orders in peacetime (Saddam's use of terror) does not equate to breaking orders in war time(some illegal abuse by a minority of soldiers).

Rodney

I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter what Saddam and his crew have done. You can't use it to justify or lessen the heinous nature of what American prison guards have done. No matter how you look at it, the US gave itself a black eye. Prosecute the SOB's, apologise for what was done and get back on the straight and narrow.

One wrong does not justify another.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I don't think you understand. This is war.

Did we cut out the tongues of people because we didn't like what they said? No. Did we hammer nails into peoples heads? Did we do these things openly in order to scare the public into submissiveness? No.

We don't even know for sure if the photos are real or not yet.

And this was not a condoned action. To compare something that isn't condoned by our society, to something that far far worse and is ordered by another countries regime is nonsense.

The antiwar types are comparing these photos to Saddam's tortures. They are not similar in many ways. We don't condone them, Saddam did. What Saddam did was far worse due to both the numbers of people effected and the way people were mutilated on a daily basis, instead of some people being abused in a rare case.

Would you rather have your tongue cut out and be lit on fire, or have a picture taken of you naked with a bag on your head?

This is a no-brainer for me, I'll keep my tongue, get the camera!

We are saying the same thing! You said you can't justify our actions (I didn't) because of theirs, and I am saying the two are so dissimmilar that you can't compare them. You are saying they are different, and so am I. You can't compare the two actions (Saddam vs. a couple of alleged illegal acts by a few soldiers) even though the anti-Bush groups try to, in order to say we are the same as they are and Iraq isn't better off. We clearly are not the same, due to our condemnation of this, if it occured.

Rodney

I do understand war, very well. No you haven’t gone to the extent that Saddam has, but what was done was heinous just the same. And please, we don’t know if the photos are real or not?????? You think the Bush administration is kicking into high gear to try and lessen the damage for FAKE photos. They are real as real can be. And the actions are not that dissimilar. They are both abuses of power perpetrated on those who were unable to defend themselves. Americans in general would not support what was done. Do you honestly think the average Iraqi approved of Saddam’s torture regime. No more than the Soviets did under Stalin. That’s the problem with a dictatorship, a minority controls and terrorizes the majority by terror tactics. That’s Iraq under Saddam.

Do you really think this is some conspiracy to embarrass the US? By whom is this being perpetrated? Come on, even you have to admit it’s real.

Do you really think this is some conspiracy to embarrass the US? By whom is this being perpetrated? Come on, even you have to admit it’s real.

First of all, no, I do not have to admit a photo that looks questionable to me is real. I'll believe it when someone admits to this action, under oath, or after the investigation is over.

No, not to embarrass the US, but to try and make the American public stop supporting this war, (and Bush). After all, this has been an amazingly successful war. Very low casualties (both civilian and our military), very fast, etc. Our military is winning this war easily, but the politicians may turn this military victory into a loss, like they did with Vietnam.

If the photo's aren't real, I would think that they would have come from some Arab think tank, wouldn't you. Who else do you think would have made them?

No, I do not know for sure they are real any more than you do. Unfortunately, the quality is so low in some of them, that this low quality could be the "weirdness" I am seeing. They might be real, they might not be. Let's wait to see what comes of the investigations. After looking at them, I do find a number of them questionable because of their "weirdness"--this "weirdness" doesn't make me believe they are real any more than it makes me believe they are fake, just questionable.

I also find the British's argument that their photos are fake compelling, since their argument would be easy enough to prove--{background equipment and uniforms not consistent with those used in Iraq.} And I find it likely that if their photos are fake, ours may be also.

Did you look at my reasons for questioning some of the photos?

If not, here is a link to my other post about this.

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=446358,447665

Pay particular attention to the pattern that is seen in two of the photos (up and down lines that look almost like fabric), indicating they are not original digital captures (but probable scans of matt finish photos), and the really odd shadowing in photo #6. The female soldier in this photo. has shadows all around her (to the left, right, top, etc.), but the prisoners do not. This indicates to me that the photo of her, and the photo of the prisoners, were taken under different lighting conditions and then cut and pasted together. I have played around with cutting and pasting items on photos, and these shadows are a major problem in "doctoring photos" when time isn't taken to correct this shadowing problem. These shadow problems can be overcome, but it takes time to do so, and that careful time consuming approach apparently wasn't taken.

But then again, maybe it is low quality of these, that makes them look faked to me.

We'll see!

Rodney

Gawd. This is really getting tedious. rodney - there are thousands of photos - thousands. There is video rodney - video. It is "horrible" according to Rumsfeld, get it? horrible. Do you think Don uses the word "horrible" lightly rodney?

Do you think that just maybe someone a little more, ahem, "observant" than you considered the possibility that these photos might be faked? Do you think maybe, just maybe. someone, say, in the CIA, like say, a media specialist just might have had a look at these photos???

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, if there was even the tiniest possibility that these photos were faked that ol' Don and the boys just might have taken a closer look?

C'mon man. Your not doing yourself any favors trying to defend your absurd position here. If there was even the slightest chance that these photos - any of them - were faked, we would have heard about it over and over and over. As I said below, your radical right wing talk show morons have no defense for this scandal so they are clinging desperately to the irrrational arguements you present here.

No one is attacking the US military - thats your own knee-jerk defensive reaction. And personally, I couldn't care less what happens to the thugs that carried out the action - they are not the key players.

The MPs actions were facilitated by the brass, who were doing the work of the top Pentagon leaders, ie Rumsfeld. And Rumsfeld was reacting to the political fallout of the Iraq war - protecting Bush.

Bush set the tone and the environment for this actrocity. The arrogance and secrecy of this administration is like no other. Now they are beginning to pay the price.

Gawd. This is really getting tedious. rodney - there are thousands of photos - thousands. There is video rodney - video. It is "horrible" according to Rumsfeld, get it? horrible. Do you think Don uses the word "horrible" lightly rodney?

Yep, it is getting tedious. How many times must I say that I want a conclusion to the investigation of this before I believe the photos are real or not? I have never stated that I am sure they are fake, just that they are questionable. Why is this so hard for you to understand? I am neither endorsing or condemning their authenticity. And, have you seen these thousands of photos? or the videos? Are you absolutely sure of their origin and numbers? I don't doubt that the photos/videos are horrible. Does the "horribleness" of them mean that they couldn't be fakes? If they were less horrible, would that mean they are real? Use some common sense. The "horribleness" of them has nothing to do with whether they are authentic or not.

I have only seen the 10 or so pics. that 60 minutes aired, and I am aware of the British photos. I don't know for a fact that there are thousands of photos, and if there are, that would explain why they didn't have the time to do a better job of cleaning up the"mystery" shadows that are present in some of them.

Do you think that just maybe someone a little more, ahem, "observant" than you considered the possibility that these photos might be faked? Do you think maybe, just maybe. someone, say, in the CIA, like say, a media specialist just might have had a look at these photos???

Yes, but, ahem!!! Have you considered that, if they are fake or not, it is irrelevant at this point in time because 1) the investigation is still on going. 2) once they were aired on 60 minutes and the Arab media, a response to them had to be given in short order---before the conclusion of the investigation or before enough time was available to find the possible source photos that may have been used to produced them?

C'mon man. Your not doing yourself any favors trying to defend your absurd position here. If there was even the slightest chance that these photos - any of them - were faked, we would have heard about it over and over and over

Didn't you see all the evidence I presented you with regarding the questions the British had as to their photo's authenticity? Has it occured to you, that maybe, after the investigation is done, they might then release information that they are faked when it is prudent to do so AFTER THE INVESTIGATION?Can't you look at them for yourself and see that they are questionable? After all, you represented yourself as an expert in the field.

The MPs actions were facilitated by the brass, who were doing the work of the top Pentagon leaders, ie Rumsfeld.

If you believe that, why had these allegations been under investigation for a few months prior to the photo's release? Use some logic once in a while. If you were trying to cover something up, would you bring in others to investigate it? Of coarse not! You would want as few people to know about it as possible.

I know you won't try to answer any of these questions, since you have never answered any in the past, but why are you so afraid to let the investigation conclude and all the evidence be seen before you make up your mind? I will make up my mind on this matter after I know more--not now, when I have only seen some questionable photos. Is presumed innocence such a foreign concept to you that you won't even let an investigation conclude before you make up your mind that something must be fact?

Here's a good example of a good doctored photo. Much harder to see the flaws that may mean it is a fake, than the flaws I have pointed out in the 60 minutes photos. Again, since you keep missing this point---this doesn't mean the photos are fakes, just that they look very questionable to me, so they might be!

Rodney

Anyone else notice rodney is now making absolutely no sense? He is worse than scott mccellan when it comes to not answering the question asked, not responding to the statement made...

rodney never, ever admits when he is blatantly wrong - he just changes the details of his arguement.

What should we say about a guy who can't ever, and I mean EVER admit when he is wrong? And man, rodney is wrong A LOT!

Whew! Its amazing really. His latest? That there are more trees now then ever before on earth! Yup, thats what he said....its the dirty rotten liberals that try to lie to you about deforestation, actually forests are better now then ever!

Since when have I ever done that?

Read your last post you hypocrite!

This thread was talking about photos of prisoners in Iraq, I was talking about those photos, and now you start talking about total numbers of trees in the world? If that isn't changing the subject, I don't know what is! And you criticize me for changing the subject! Yikes! What have you been drink'n/smokin?

And have you EVER answered a question I have posed to you?

Nope, not once. I have answered hundreds of yours. Don't think I missed one even. And you criticize me for not answering questions also! Double Yikes! Look up hypocrite in the dictionary and see if your picture is there.

Rodney

I do agree with what Rodney is saying on his thread. I did see this coming as I could tell that Rodney was saying the same thing. It was in different words of course, but he makes it clear.

It seems to me that people spend more time complaining about our president cause of different political party labels rather than concentrate on the problem, the issue, THE REASON WE ARE OVER THERE! Funny how too many complain about things that are not the main issue, rather than support our troops, who are over there risking THEIR lives for my freedom, for your freedom, for everybody's freedom. The freedom to participate in ridiculous whining posts that do not focus on absolutes but on biased opinions. Sad once you think about it, eh?

Most of you probably have families, wives, husbands, kids, etc. Go spend some time with them now. You have what those soldier's are a) fighting for and b) can't wait to get home to.

They are the true heroes. They are doing something no freaking sports athelete is doing, and something that is much more important. Any popular media figure sits in a dark shadow of inferiority when compared to people fighting for your freedom. They are the true heroes and deserve your support.

Terrorism exists. It sucks. It will affect all of us if not stopped. Remember 911? Those who are terrorists need to be eliminated as quickly as possible. What else is anyone supposted to do? Nothing? Case closed. DUH!

There is not much else that needs to be said.

Take care!!!!!!!!

Billy

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Genesis 1:1

The problem BILLY is that there ARE NO ABSOLUTES. War is rarely about clean cut issues...often there is a political agenda that does not match the "POPULAR" cause.

(For example: The American Civil War was fought just to free the Slaves Right? WRONG!It was fought over a Tariff which (if passed) would have bankrupted the South's cotton industry. Freeing the slaves was the issue the North used to get public support.)

No one here is not supporting our troops. My nephew served there...I am a veteran...and PROUD OF IT.

However, it is a black eye to all veterans when some of our own do things like those photos show. That is why it is important to talk about it even if this is a silly forum that changes nothing in the real world.

As to the reason and justification of this war. It is also a subject for debate. It is not slamming the troops to question the competancy of the leaders....We had that problem in Viet Nam.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"The problem BILLY is that there ARE NO ABSOLUTES. War is rarely about clean cut issues...often there is a political agenda that does not match the "POPULAR" cause."

First of all, thank you for your post that shows intelligence, maturity, and merit.

I don't doubt that their may be some political agendas in this...I am just saying that terrorism needs to be stopped and this war, sucky as it may be just like any war, to me is about America fighting an evil called terrorism.

"No one here is not supporting our troops. My nephew served there...I am a veteran...and PROUD OF IT."

Well.....from what I read...it seems that people are more into pushing their own agendas rather than lift up our troops and that they just whine about Bush, etc. instead of focusing on all the evil done in the name of terrorism.

"However, it is a black eye to all veterans when some of our own do things like those photos show. That is why it is important to talk about it even if this is a silly forum that changes nothing in the real world.

As to the reason and justification of this war. It is also a subject for debate. It is not slamming the troops to question the competancy of the leaders....We had that problem in Viet Nam. "

Oh, I agree! I was disgusted by this kindergarten way of treating those POWs. Very immature and uncalled for.

Your nephew has my upmost respect and support and you sir have my respect as well being a veteran. Thank you!! I really do appreciate you and what you have done.

Take care!

Billy

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>>Terrorism exists. It sucks. It will affect all of us if not stopped. Remember 911? Those who are terrorists need to be eliminated as quickly as possible. What else is anyone supposted to do? Nothing? Case closed. DUH!

lol Remember 911? Nah we all forgotIts not like we don't hear it every 30 seconds by Bush. I doubt he can make a speech with out using 911 in it?

Any way, do us all a favor and, define Terrorism. You will see that by DEFINITION America its self can be considered a terrorist.

Its EASY to place blame abroad then to accept what hits so close to home... F.Y.I. Our "the U.S." sh!t stinks to

Word of the day: !!Homework!!

"lol Remember 911? Nah we all forgotIts not like we don't hear it every 30 seconds by Bush. I doubt he can make a speech with out using 911 in it? "

And the point is..............? So Bush is " bad " cause he talks about 911 in a speech? What a horrible president! LOL! Sad to see that some people don't like hearing reasons of fighting terrorism talked about by the country's own president.

"Any way, do us all a favor and, define Terrorism. You will see that by DEFINITION America its self can be considered a terrorist. "

That is a pretty ridiculous statement, and you ask me to do homework? LOL! Do you live in America? I guess that fighting terrorism means to not go over, disarm and conquer Saddam, etc. I guess we are supposed to do nothing, huh?

My original post was talking about attitudes such as what you have just illustrated here. Your post makes no point and does not prove anything I have said was incorrect. BUT, you have the freedom to make such posts as I do. Nice how freedom works, eh?

Take care!
Billy
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Saddam is a bad guy. I thinkl we can all agree on that. But there has never been a credible link between and Osama Bin Laden or other terrosrist groups. It doesn't exist.

should read "between Iraq and Osama Bin Laden"

Personally, I think the Al Qaeda members that were captured in Afghanistan that said they were trained in chemical warfare in Iraq, and the terrorist captured by Jordan that said they were recruited by Iraq, and the $30 million dollars that Saddam has paid to Palestinian suicide bombers, and Tariq Aziz's testimony that he regularly met with Osama in the late 90s when he was Saddam's right hand man, and the plane hulls that were found in Iraq for training hijacking are all credible reasons to link Iraq to terrorism. (not to mention all the documented internal terrorism he subjected his people to)

And all combined, they are a very very credible reason. But that is just my opinion. If that isn't credible to you, I don't know what would be!

Rodney

But Rodney...

The 911 terrorists were trained to fly in California and Florida! Does that make our (yours and mine) states worthy of invasion?

(Note that this is not a serious question...I just couldn't resist the opening LOLOLOLOLOL>OLOLLLOLLL)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Nope, not at all.

Those flight schools thought they were training pilots.-They may have been wrong, but that is the purpose of flight schools. Do you think Iraq thought they were training chemists or pharmacists when the Al Queda members, that were captured in Afghanistan, were training in chemical warfare in Iraq? I don't think so! Big difference!

And yeah, I know your question wasn't real, but so many have argued this nonsense of a point, I though I would point out the obvious flaw in it.

Rodney

What can I say? This thread is so endlessly over discussed I had to try for comic relief....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>So Bush is " bad " cause he talks about 911 in a speech?

LOLOLOLOL in "A" speech? In "A" SPEECH? TRY EVERY SPEECH.

Bush RELIES on 911 like a crutch.

He USED 911 to RUSH us in to war with Iraq.

And the guy Behind 911 has still not been apprehended.

It bothers me that you "and others" claim your undying support for the troops, yet justify every obviously idiotic move made by your fuhrer and is administration who but these men and woman in harms way...

"LOLOLOLOL in "A" speech? In "A" SPEECH? TRY EVERY SPEECH."

So, was 911 not that big of a deal? Does it not merit many speeches? I guess the families of the victims share your view, huh? I guess we need to rally up a big support letter to let Bush know that he has been using 911 in too many speeches. What a horrible thing! LOL! And we thought Clinton was bad because of perjury! LOL!

"Bush RELIES on 911 like a crutch."

Really? Did you ask this or assume?

"He USED 911 to RUSH us in to war with Iraq."

Really? Did you ask him this as well?

"And the guy Behind 911 has still not been apprehended."

One true statement out of this post finally!

"It bothers me that you "and others" claim your undying support for the troops, yet justify every obviously idiotic move made by your fuhrer and is administration who but these men and woman in harms way..."

Funny how you use the word " fuhrer ". Since Adolf Hitler used that term for himself, using that term to describe Bush or any president of the modern day, Republican or Democrat, is pretty childish and in bad taste.

And you say I justify every obviously idiotic move made by ..blah blah...........really...I do? How do you know that I even agree with everything that the president does? You don't, and that is what is sad here. My friend.....time to release yourself from the grip of assumption. It has a good hold on you, as you have shown here with your words.

Take care!

Billy
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they will criticize Bush for mentioning 9/11 too frequently in speeches, when over 3,000 innocent civilians died in a single unprovoked attack, when we were at peace with them, and when Bush is just trying to keep us focused on this threat.---------

But they will always remind you of all the deaths in Iraq, (only a little over 500 in an entire year), in a war that has gone on for over a year, in virtually every post they make, and blame this on Bush!--and they don't think that this is mentioned too frequently! -LOL

Let's see, mentioning 500 deaths with every post you make is OK, but mentioning 9/11 (six times as many deaths, of civilians) to keep us focused on the threat that terrorists pose isn't OK? Am I seeing hypocrisy again?

Rodney

>>>Am I seeing hypocrisy again?

RODNEY RODNEY RODNEY lololol You of all people

Mr. DOUBLE STANDARD HIM SELF?

O when will the resta of us all be as enlightened, and PRIVILEGED his that golden boy Rodney..lol

Get Bent!

Your pal, ~SoBeK~

I agree Rodney!!!

I like how your post has this thing called " Facts" that some other people choose to ignore, instead clinging on uneducated opinions.

Good post!

Billy
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>>So, was 911 not that big of a deal? Does it not merit many speeches?

Let me strum on my violin as you weep your sad song..
Show me ANYWHERE that I said it was not a "Big Deal". Nor did I say it didn't merit any speech's, BUT

BUSH CANNOT MAKE A SPEECH WITHOUT IT. And yes he uses it like a crutch. Yes a lot of people died that day. TO BAD the guy Behind the killings is a SECOND PRIORITY TO THE PRESIDENT. Think about that..

Tell me, Do you think if we spent HALF AS MUCH EFFORT in Afghanistan, looking for Osama, as we are doing in Iraq, WE MIGHT HAVE HIM IN CUSTODY?

But NO! Der Fuhrer G.W.Bush had other objectives. Tell that to the Families of the 911 victims.

~SoBeK~

P.S. I know what fuhrer is Billy boy, and it fits G.W.Bush, like a glove!!

"Let me strum on my violin as you weep your sad song..
Show me ANYWHERE that I said it was not a "Big Deal". Nor did I say it didn't merit any speech's, BUT BUSH CANNOT MAKE A SPEECH WITHOUT IT. And yes he uses it like a crutch. Yes a lot of people died that day. TO BAD the guy Behind the killings is a SECOND PRIORITY TO THE PRESIDENT. Think about that.."

The very fact you are focusing on the fact of Bush mentioning it in many speeches is just plain childish, repetive, and immature. So what. Wow....he can mention 9/11 in speeches. See how much of your focus and energy is spent on that non productive point? And, again you assume that it is his second priority.

"Tell me, Do you think if we spent HALF AS MUCH EFFORT in Afghanistan, looking for Osama, as we are doing in Iraq, WE MIGHT HAVE HIM IN CUSTODY?"

First intellingent thing you have said in this line of repeating opinions. I don't necessarily completely disagree. High five!

"But NO! Der Fuhrer G.W.Bush had other objectives. Tell that to the Families of the 911 victims."

Hey....just like all politicians....I don't know his motives entirely. BUT, you need to be able to use words in their proper context, and using that word to label any modern day president, like I had to clarify in my last post, doesn't do justice to anything you are saying and leaves too much room for people looking for mature conversation to look elsewhere and not take you seriously. If you don't like Bush...fine, but calling him something like that just doesn't make any sense and makes you look rather foolish. It is time to differentiate between personal dislikes and facts.

Take care!

Billy
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Y'all and your jingoism..lol

Life must be so simple, when living by a double standard

Once again....just two sentences and they both reek of assumptions. I didn't have to do a thing. Thank you for proving my point once again.

Take care!

Billy
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