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I cannot understand the facination with hybridizing a Columbian Boa. Albino Columbians seem to be getting crossed with everything, Surinams, Argentines, Hogg Islands. I think it is very sad. Pure animals are going to be hard to get one day, and might be advertised like locale boas now. The problem is not the person that buys a hybrid to have as a display. The problem comes in when someone breeds a hybrid, and then cannot sell them, and eventually stops telling people that it is a hybrid. I wonder how many people are buying Albinos that are not 100% Columbians, and do not know it. Breeding a Hogg Island or any Island ssp to a mainland animal should be criminal...ok, maybe not, but you get my point. I have decided to get back into boas a little, maybe an albino trio or something, but man, the hybrids put me off big time. I hope people do not pull this Cr@p with Ball Pythons. I have 30 Ball morphs now, just for the record, and will never cross anything into them. I will have Angolans one day, and will not be tempted to do an albino ball x angolan ever. Can someone tell me what the facination is with Boa hybrids? and you hybrid breeders, how are you going to guarantee your mutts do not get sold as purebreds?

David Reid
Temecula, CA

Dave, the new colors and patterns in the boa world that is being created are captive bred specialties. They are all boas. There are those who still breed the origional strain and that makes them even more special in my opinion. New colors in boas is like coming out with a new exciting soft drink flavor and color! These new breeds are only for the end consumers pleasure, not for the salvation of the origional strain. In my opinion, I think what we have seen so far is only the begining! Andy Federico

One: money. I breed pure hoggs and sell them for $150 ea. I see hypoxhoggs going for $350 and up (sometimes way up). I have a hypo that is more then willing. SurinamXcolombian albinos same thing a $1,000 snake or a $2000 snake??
Two: To get a nicer looking snake, that is why they are more money, if nasty ugly mutts were the result they would not sell. You do not have to like the crosses, but many people do, and are willing to pay more. I know I would trade my colombian albinos for suri crosses all day long. I do see the argument of "keep em pure", but I think enough people are doing that we will not have to worry about it( Thanks Gus, Bill Cagle, and many others) I do beleive 5 to 10 years from now the prices on the true locale boas will jump considerably. Just my 02 Craig Kade

i believe that hybridization of endangered species is unethical...i won't paint a preety picture for you. i don't care if crossing occidentalis with a kahl amel imperator will put more $$ in my pocket. that isn't the reason i do this.

would i like to make more money doing this?...well sure! but not at the expense of polluting what little we have left of hog's island imperators, occidentalis, and many other appendix 1 listings.

look at how bastardized the carpet pythons have become. need another example...python molurus molurus, and python m. pimbura.

i admit, i don't feel concerned about people integrating bcc and bci-but leave endangered animals out of your RETIREMENT PLAN!

hog's are all but extinct in the wild. if everyone that owns hog's thinks with their wallet their won't be any pure hog's left.

here is a quote from "reproductive husbandry," REGUARDING INTEGRATIION:

"The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of preety patterns can never be rectified. The lack of foresight demonstrated by such irresponsible breeding is catastophic and profound. In the quest for new saleable novelties, patterns and colors, breeders of such specimens fail to realize that the damage created by this practice is permanent. What evolution has inexorably created over the millennia, cell by cell, molecule by molecule, is destroyed forever by the passing whim of a would-be scientist, herpetological dilettante or commercial breeder, for once the genes are commingled, they are forever lost."

people...protect these animals you say you love. integrade responsibly by leaving appendix 1 animals out of your other projects.

just my opinion, chris olson
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

np
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-Iman
1.1 Sugar Gliders (Gizmo and Nema)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Spot and Speck)
0.1 Colombian BCI (Belle)
1.0 Colombian Rainbow (Rex)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow (Just arrived!!!)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.



Imans House of Herps

I, Mr. A. Nonymous, being of questionable mind and limited knowledge, hereby declare the following:

In the world of snake-keepers there are only 5 qualities of people. A person may posses more than one of these qualities, but never more than 3. One quality is always dominant over the other. All qualities are genetically inheritable but are proven recessive.

*Naturalistic* - Those who's primary goals are the study, propagation and responsible keeping of the animals that mother nature gave us. Hopeless aim to save the world, and if that won't work, then snakes are more important than humans. These are those most conscerned about the quality of life of their herps.

*Collectivistic* - Those who's appetite for animals sees no boundary, an "at least one of everything" attitude. These people either collect-themselves-poor, wasting life savings or else they become pet store owners. Characterized by Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Extreme cases result in inhumane mistreatment of their animals.

*Economic* - Money is the key to happiness. Goal is maximization of income to subsidize interest in reptiles and the lack of motivation to work a real job that also accompanies reptilian intrigue.

*Experimentalistic* - Forget Nature's plans, they take too long! "Give me new, give me more... give me something exciting!" Experimental intrigue rules all else and the urge to cross pollinate dominates!

*Minimalistic* - Give me one and only one, okay, maybe two. "I have a life that doesn't revolve around herps." Generally most uneducated. Pets become a part of the family.

*Artistic* - "My snake is only a means to my artistic masterpiece!" After spending countless hours and more money than a bank's loan on a all-out living vivarium, the snake only completes the equation and provides the "I'm done" mental release.

AFAIK, these are the only scientifically proven herper traits. Studies are continually underway and research is always 100% marred.

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Personally, I am collectivistic and naturalistic.

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-Iman
1.1 Sugar Gliders (Gizmo and Nema)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Spot and Speck)
0.1 Colombian BCI (Belle)
1.0 Colombian Rainbow (Rex)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow (Just arrived!!!)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.



Imans House of Herps

n/p
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

This subject comes up about every 2 weeks here. There is no real answer. People will breed pure animals, and people will breed integrades/hybrids. How can you guarantee that your normal Ball Pythons and 50 or 66% hets that you produce will not be sold as 100% hets down the road? It's the same argument over and over. Have you been over to Hogg Island and actually looked for, and reasearched these Boas? If not, how can you say they are extict, or close to it? Argentines are pretty common in captivity, and although the situation is pretty dismal in Argentina, their will be pure Argentines for many, many generations to come. This subject has been beat to the ground, and all I can say is this; If you want a certain animal, do your reasearch and trace the animal back as far as you can

None of the color morphs on the market today are 100% Colombian. Most of the color morphs are from Central American Boas, Both the Albino line and the Hypo line are from Central American Boa Stock originally. They Colombian Blood was bred in because it was the hardiest and most common. But to think that any of them is 100% locality specific is wrong. Now I know the next thing you will say is that Colombian, central American, same snake it is all BCI, but the are as different as Suriname and Peruvian BCC boas, so your worry about pure Colombian albinos is based on a flawed assumption to begin with.
Second, I doubt that there are many locality pure Boas out there to begin with. Most of the BCC stock that has been around for several generations is crossed with other blood already. There are many BCC boas being sold that have BCI blood in them. Unless you want an Imported juvenile (which is not always bad) then you don’t know for sure. The snakes we breed are not for re-introduction into the wild EVER! The thought of that is again a flawed misconception. The snakes that we breed, even if they were pure blooded would not have a chance of surviving in the wild. The know no fear, their immune systems are weak, from being kept in sterile artificial environments and could not handle the normal influx of wild germs and bacteria. Not to mention if someone tries to release a captive bred boa that has IBD, then you end up killing the entire native population of boas in a given geographical area.
No these boas are bred as pets and pets only, if you have issues with them not being pure then sorry, but there really is no need to keep them pure. I see no resemblance to a tea cup poodle and a wild African dog? How long do you think the tea cup poodle would survive back out on the African plains? Just about long enough for it’s wild cousin to eat it. This season I am hoping for babies that are bred from a male Salmontine Boa (Salmon Hypo x Argentine Boa) Bred to a Female Suriname X Colombian Boa. Yes that’s right, the babies will be 25% Central American (Salmon), 25 % Argentine, 25% Colombian and 25% Suriname! I expect these hypo babies to be knock outs and I make no apology for creating them. I’ll post pictures of the babies when they are born.
Thanks
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

Not to take away from anything you've said, but the founder original strain Albino ( and the Sharp strain ) was exported out of Colombia. The only Albinos that have come out of CA were the T+ Nicuaraguans that came in 2 or 3 years ago. Check out the link below
VPI link

i don't think anyone here suggested reintroduction. i think the point is to maintain the genetic integrity of species that are in danger of vanishing. integrading these species with others increases that likleyhood. it doesn't matter what the intentions are, the result is the same.

respectfully, chris
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

One last thing. I am going to be adding two albino females, and probably a higher end male to my collection, and I can promise this, if you are selling hybrids on the net, I WILL NOT BE CALLING YOU TO BUY ANIMALS. If I bought a pure albino, I would always wonder if it was actually what I bought, or some leftover mutt.

Dave

Funny thing is.......Peter Kahl and Brain Sharp put the original effort towards the albino project. They both have albino crosses. If your contention is to not buy from someone who sells "mutts"....You're pretty much screwed. The originators of the albinos sell them. Brian Sharp has albino suri crosses and Pete has albino argentines. So, in some way...You'll be buying from a "mutt" breeder.
Best of luck with your "NOT BE CALLING YOU TO BUY ANIMALS" journey.
John

>>One last thing. I am going to be adding two albino females, and probably a higher end male to my collection, and I can promise this, if you are selling hybrids on the net, I WILL NOT BE CALLING YOU TO BUY ANIMALS. If I bought a pure albino, I would always wonder if it was actually what I bought, or some leftover mutt.
>>
>>Dave
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

but your ball python morph reference has allowed me the opportunity to recycle this old story that I wrote a few years ago.When I posted this on the BP forum,some people cracked up and some were quite pissed.Your comments on this forum concerning integrades will make some angry,some will agree and some have seen it hashed and rehashed to death so often that they can't do anyhing but hopefully chuckle.Here is the story:

I am excited about some snakes that I am getting in next week in a trade,and want to share the true story.
This will be hard to believe,but I got this second hand, straight from an extremely unreliable source, that I could be getting some extremely rare Ball Python morphs in a trade next week.
The story goes that the parents of these beauties once belonged to an African Prince,and were stolen by an unscrupulous reptile dealer and were smuggled into the country(supposedly by Jared what's his name,the t.v. guy,in a bunch of Subway Sandwich buns,but I am not sure if it was the real Jared).
Anyway,I have purchased these beauties and will call the four that I would have posted pics of ..if this were the Python Classifieds and if I actually had the snakes,but it isn't and I don't...A-D. Would be D-A if you are reading this in a mirror or somewhat dyslexic,but go with me now.... Close your eyes and picture these babies,and see if you like what you don't really see,but could see if the pics were here and the...heck you know.
Baby A is not Het or Double Het,but is 100% Melatoninistic.Look at this sucker for a while and no need to count sheep or armidillos,this baby will put you to sleep.Not addictive either.
Baby B is proven het for Hypo.Fifty,Fifty folks.She or he,not sexed yet because it isn't here,is half Hypodermic,half Hypopottamus.So what?Huh,how much is the protection of family worth? Let's say you are on a canoe trip with the family,on a Tuesday.. (if you don't work or are laid off),and some loud- mouth roughnecks in a rubber dinghy,are making fun of your wife and kids and calling them butt-ugly or something.Even if it is true,turn this sucker loose and it will turn the dinghy over and drown them,or at the very least poke a hole in the boat and maybe they will drown anyway.Or maybe it won't and they will kick your arsk,however you got a fifty percent chance don't you?
Baby C is cool as well...it is a possible Xzantactic baby.No kidding, 100% possible.'Big freakin deal',you say,or perhaps shout if you have already spent this much time reading this post,but let me tell you what this same liar told me about this snake...You could listen to your wife,or husband, ,occasional pleasure partner,(that part is irrelevant),gripe at you non-stop,and eat a Taco from Manuel's Taco Mart,and hold this snake,and there is no chance of Gastric Reflux,Wake up in the middle of the night with esophogits,(the bad kind where you sort of puke,but catch it in your mouth first)and try and put a price on this snake.Go ahead I dare you.
Last, but not least,and I say this sincerely as a 20 year weekend musician who has played every Beatles song to people,even if they would yell,"Holy Moly,no more Beatles...Freebird",this might be my favorite of the bunch.Take baby D,into a dark room and shine a black light on it and get out a magnifying glass(not during the day in Nevada,cause you will fry the dude),and honestly I could almost swear that I
think I could possibly see some kind of a mark that might be a ring if it was round.Swear to you.It plays the drums and sings poorly,and I swear it is a RingoBall.What are those suckers going for? Market value? Triple easy!
Anyway,I know this is not the classifieds,but if you know anyone who would pay off my mortgage and Master card debt,I will sell these to them.If they are not sold by noon(any day will do),
I will be forced to hold on to them and pout.

no post
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
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posting opinions on the forum.Interestingly enough,some of sellers that you might not want to buy from,if you stick to your criteria, would be the very same people who have the best reputations for honesty and integrity, if you check the BOI.

The horse was out of the barn about 20 years ago,so to speak,so it is important to be certain that the sellers have honest reputations and represent the animals to the best of their ability.

There are some excellent breeders of locale specific animals on this forum.You are actually upset with integrades,not hybridization,though.Hybrids are a bit more rare.

>>posting opinions on the forum.Interestingly enough,some of sellers that you might not want to buy from,if you stick to your criteria, would be the very same people who have the best reputations for honesty and integrity, if you check the BOI.
>>
>>The horse was out of the barn about 20 years ago,so to speak,so it is important to be certain that the sellers have honest reputations and represent the animals to the best of their ability.
>>
>>There are some excellent breeders of locale specific animals on this forum.You are actually upset with integrades,not hybridization,though.Hybrids are a bit more rare.
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Actually, intergrades are the "Naturally Occuring" hybrid crosses of subspecies. Intergrades are only created in intergradization zones in the wild, or are the captive bred offspring of those wild intergrades.

We do not create intergrades in captivity by crossing subspecies... that would be a subspecies-cross hybrid.

The confusion stems from an old definition of hybrid that essentially called it a cross of species. It's pretty much the standard these days that subspecies crosses are hybrids.

A good example can be found with indigo snakes (cribos) of Central America. Black Tail Cribos and Unicolor Cribos intergrade naturally and are often refered to in the hobby as "Brown Tails". Whereas if you crossed a Texas Indigo with a Unicolor Cribo (a same level subspecies cross), you have a hybrid.

Doug T

"You are actually upset with integrades,not hybridization,though.Hybrids are a bit more rare."

I am, however,the definition of old...and possibly some sort of hybrid.

Doug T

No post in the subject or message. I guess I ran out of things to say.

Doug T

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

I have to say some more...I think we will always have that little boy or girl that wants their first boa constrictor. I am certain they are not saying ...are you sure its a pure colombian?? The thing that puts that first snake into their home for them is price. I know this from my own child hood, and I could never afford one and my parents would not spend the $100 price tag. getting these so called mutts in the pet trade actually benefits those young children due to better end price for them. I think sometimes we can loose sight of what really matters here. Now lets all come up with some new boa line ideas! Thanks Andy

titled "comical explanation." most of us have the best intentions...and clearly we all have different views...that's a good thing, right?

i admit...i've been tempted to breed my favorite male argie with my favorite bci female...they would make "sceamers!" but i've decided to take a hardline position on this because i think it's important that some people do. i don't have anything against people who intergrade on a personal level. infact, i don't consider "columbian x central american" an intergrade. they are both bci. i don't even have a problem with bci x bcc. only when seriously endanged animals are envolved in these projects do i have a problem.

i will still buy animals from people who practice this. i have purchased several animals from jeremy stone...and though i might disagree with using occidentalis bloodlines for amel projects, i believe in his integrity as a business person, and his animals are in the upper echelon.

i think this is the case with most sellers out there.

chris
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

Are these hybrids?

Dave

in locality terms, yes, because of the hog's island usage in that project. an awesome looking animal, but i think there is a price to paid for creating it.

chris
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

Yes they are hybrids!!! They are awesome super Hybrids! My hat goes off to the people who had the courage to explore those and the new ideas!!! You know who they are! Without them we would probably not even have a board here to speak of. Andy

Ok, so they are a Hogg Island cross. I just briefly looked at the ad, but did not see "cross" or "hybrid" anywhere in the ad. I could be wrong, but if they just state it is a new morph, without saying it is a hybrid, I think that is wrong. I would not consider it a new morph at all, but a cross.

Dave

nm

>>I cannot understand the facination with hybridizing a Columbian Boa. Albino Columbians seem to be getting crossed with everything, Surinams, Argentines, Hogg Islands. I think it is very sad. Pure animals are going to be hard to get one day, and might be advertised like locale boas now. The problem is not the person that buys a hybrid to have as a display. The problem comes in when someone breeds a hybrid, and then cannot sell them, and eventually stops telling people that it is a hybrid. I wonder how many people are buying Albinos that are not 100% Columbians, and do not know it. Breeding a Hogg Island or any Island ssp to a mainland animal should be criminal...ok, maybe not, but you get my point. I have decided to get back into boas a little, maybe an albino trio or something, but man, the hybrids put me off big time. I hope people do not pull this Cr@p with Ball Pythons. I have 30 Ball morphs now, just for the record, and will never cross anything into them. I will have Angolans one day, and will not be tempted to do an albino ball x angolan ever. Can someone tell me what the facination is with Boa hybrids? and you hybrid breeders, how are you going to guarantee your mutts do not get sold as purebreds?
>>
>>David Reid
>>Temecula, CA
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JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

No matter what ya create,theirs people that love em and equal enough to have em. My suggestion would be. "if ya don't like em.......don't breed em or buy em" You have your right to complain BUT, do you actually think this wouls stop or even slow this particular Sunset breeding?.......... no
Dave
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Actions Speak louder than words.
Dave @ East TN Reptiles