Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Basically the question was concerning a dragon that had twiching(hypocalcemia probably). The fecal showed pinworms which was a concern. Ultimatly the dragon died. The interesting part comes in the reply by DR. Mader. I will quote parts of interest from the reply. "Most experts do not think that pinworms cause disease in herbivores. In fact, it is believed that pinworms are necessary for proper digestion, as they help with the breakdown and digestion of cellulose, a component of plant fibers. It is not uncommon to see diarrhea an bloating develop in animals that have been dewormed to eradicate all the pinworms." I knew this much about coccidia, which he goes on to talk about, but not pinworms. Parazap users beware! JK, don't want to open that can of worms...lol.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
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Reptile mag also once suggested aquarium gravel for bearded substrate...yeah right! Definately not a beardie owner.
I'm sorry, but I can't imagine any parasite multiplying in a beardies belly sucking up it's nutrients being a good thing..
Seems to me beardies get hookworm more often then pinworm. I don't know that it's a fact, but just from viewing posts, it seems to be the case.
And as far as the Parazap joke(?)....It works, and I'm stickin with it.
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TheClassyLizard

You missed the point about pinworms breaking down the cellulose. They are not taking nutrients from the dragon, they are digesting the cellulose and excreting compounds that are absorbed by the dragon. It is a symbiotic relationship that benefits the host and the parasite. It is when this balance becomes skewed that problems can arise. Things like stress and an unclean environment are examples of what can upset the balance.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
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What keeps them from multiplying out of control? I can't understand how there could be a balance if they naturally multiply, stress or no stress.
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TheClassyLizard

coccidia occuring in dragons in small amounts being fairly harmless, the drugs to treat the small amount is potentially more harmful, but when stress or other circumstances cause the amount to multiply it can be harmful to the dragon and need to be treated. I dont know about coccidia being beneficial to a dragon but perhaps the small amount of pin worms he is speaking of could have benefits to a point, but when they are in numbers to have an adverse effect the benefits are outweighed by the harm it can do the animal and would need treatment.

Coccidia occurs natural in a bearded dragons digestive system, but when the animals is stressed or ill, certain emzyne levels increase in the stomach acids. Those enzynes feed the coccidia and promote reproduction of them. The dragon shows signs such as runny and very smelly poo, we take a fecal to the vet and get meds to treat the coccidia.

We are not really treating the coccidia, the meds do not kill them, they interfer with the production of those emzynes that are fueling the coccida, allowing the dragons own immune system to deal with the existing adults, not reproduce(or at least slow it) or simply time.

Now, we have treated the dragon and he gets a clean fecal
BUT!!!!! We have also killed off the good bacteria in the digestive system that keeps others things in check, especially the yeast. So the yeast start thriving. Now you have two problems.... yeast overload that can be very irritating for them and no or little bacteria to help digest food. The dragon slows in eating, the bacteria is not starting the digestive process and the dragon does not know he is hungry, and he also has this yeast flair up that is irritating the lining of his stomach and may even start to speard to the skin/scales around the vent (much like a female with a yeast infection)as a yellow discoloration on the skin/scales

What usually happens at that point? We take the dragon back to the vet with a skin problem. Many vets in the past saw a dermatitis, assumed is was a bacterial infection and decide to treat with anitbiotics....... Guess what, we are only increasing the yeast load and soon have a very ill dragon on our hand that will become fatal if left in this cycle.

Its all about balance, until we know exactly what is the normal digestive make up..... we need to make sure each time we treat a dragon, we are also replacing whatever we can in them. Probiotics certainly can help.... maybe we are not repalcing everything or maybe we are putting things in they do not need, but its better than the alternative and much cheaper!

I understand the concept..
My mind just won't let me think that pinworm, hookworm or any other type of parasite is a plus.
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TheClassyLizard

studies on this, unfortunately there is just not any funding for professionals and few Vets that are willing to or have the time involved to do it

There immune system. When the dragon lives in a constant stressful environment, this compromises and weakens the immune system thus allowing the parasite to multiply unchecked. This is a very simple explaination. If you want to learn more about parasitic sybiosis, I would suggest a microbiology text or a google search. Humans are hosts to several gut parasites in the form of bacteria. There is a wealth of information out there, try reading up before arguing. I mean that in a nice way of course.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
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I'm not arguing...much to your dissapointment. What I said was I don't understand, admittedly. No reason for you to get sarcastic, as usual.
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TheClassyLizard

Well, you never know.....one study says this one that.....but I think part of the issue here would be "herbivores" may need them for digestion........it didn't say omnivores.....which are what beardies are......every different type of eater uses different gut flora and fauna to digest it's food.....and every species may have different ones and or normal levels as such....that's why we don't intermix species....what's good for one may be deadly to another as we all know. I don't have any total herbivores as of yet anyway.....but I'll certainly keep the study in mind in case I acquire one.

As for the parazap.....it's goal is to balance the digestive system to it's own healthy, natural state......I have regular fecals done on my reptiles and have not had any pinworm....but haven't had any diarrhea or bloating either....but then again I have no herbivores.

Thanks for the info, Bill, it's good to share when others may have not read that article......we all need to be aware of changes that may affect the reptiles in our care.

I thought of the same thing when reading the reply, but the question was in reference to a Dragon. I'm certain he meant dragons. He continued to say that pinworms are likely species specific, meaning that dragons couls have there own species of pinworms. Being omnivorous, dragons are both herbivores and insectivores, as well as carnivores on occasion. They are still consuming plant matter that has cellulose. The cellulose is probably broken down by the p[inworms into simpler carbs which the dragons can use as energy.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
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If he meant beardies....I wonder why he used the term herbivore instead of omnivore.....omnivore would still relate to the plant matter intake and digestion. I question the pinworm thing as I regularly have all my dragons fecals done and never had a pinworm found which I find strange if they have them naturally. I could see them being missed if their numbers are small, but after many fecals you'd think you find it occassionally. I will certainly keep it in mind and I certainly cannot prove it's not true.....but I would like to see some data concerning it....if you find any, please pass it on.....I'm sure we all would like to the incidence and test results. I also, consider that some individual reptiles that are hardy adapt to having parasites they shouldn't to survive and then they become needed....and so I wonder if his conclusions rule that out in his study animals. Anyway.....much food for thought.

n/p
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TheClassyLizard