Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it just me or is everyone out there trying to sell bp's labelling them something they definitely are not. Everytime I'm scoping adds, no matter where they be, I'll see some real nice titles. Such as black backs, high golds, ect. And when I open it all I find is a normal with some slight black backing, maybe a little stripe down the tail, or a slightly gold bp. It's super annoying, it's borderline fraud. Except for the fact that you'd have to be extremely dense to not realize it was missrepresented upon sight.

So what is with everyone trying to make a normal something it isn't now? I don't ever remember it being so bad. It'd be great to see an add for a reduced pattern and actually be able to see it.

And I definitely don't see it doing anything for a breeder's credibility. Anyone else notice this problem?
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Ball-Pythons.Net

...because this most definitely is a Black Back.

no, I am not referring to that ad

Thats a good looking snake you got there.

I Like,
Chad

You should probably send that snake to me for a few years so I can inspect it closely.
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Astronomy Picture of the Day

Very nice Ball, is it for sale? Thanks... John
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0.1 Albino
1.0 Pastel
1.0 (F1)Banded Ball
1.1 100% Het Piebald
1.1 100% Het Butterscotch Ghost
1.1 100% Het Yellow Ghost
2.18 Normal Balls

Thanks...

Yes, it is for sale on the Kingsnake classifieds. I didn't think that this thread was directed at our ad, but I just wanted to make sure...

Our Ad

LOL

......I get black backs every year.....sell them for normals.....

......not genetic enough to predict..........worse than aztec corns...

yep.........

my 3 cents.........

(I know...you didn't ask me)....LOL

nice snake........

( insert comments here...........................................)
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.
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"I still hate snakes"
...........................KNOW

I will purchase EVERY Black Back that you get that looks like the one that we are selling...especially since you indicate that you will sell them for the price of normals...

Then again, perhaps you are one of those folks that sell "normals" as Black Backs...???

Hey...I'd rather be "paranoid" and be wrong...than be "smug and secure" and be wrong...

third generation black backed...............not as good as that one in pic.....but better than most I see posted here and in classifieds.......and they are all normals.....even yours.....yet people will pay more for them..........and sell babies as black backs.....even when they aren't......cause they paid for that ....and they sell for that....even though they look like crap........(see pics here in archives...plenty of them).....

anyways.......

smug?....hmmm......no....not me......I haven't enough money to be smug....................

I am just me......and I tell what I think.......and alot of people don't like it.......they'd rather suger coat crap and make more friends/money..........

.........I don't need either...........

...........well....back to work.........breaktime over...............................

.
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"I still hate snakes"
...........................KNOW

Did not know you could link your own personal ad in this forum. Maybe I missed the memo. TOS?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Have you proven it out to be genetic?
Kinda high for a normal.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

>>That can't be a black back... Looks more like a four spot brown back to me **lil wave to Nigel and Gail**...TW

***Lil wave back***

In case you were wondering...

My pet hamster (Harry) and my pet Komodo dragon (Ken) are getting along great together in their 40-gallon breeder...

At first, I thought a 40-gallon breeder may be a little small for Ken...he is, after all, pushing 6 feet...
But once I got the lid on and clipped down all around, everything was fine...

Hope to see you soon...

That is a damn fine black back tho. Congrats.
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Ball-Pythons.Net

Thanks...

Nice looking normal.
But for that price you can get a genetic ball. Such as pastel or albino baby. Why produce normals when you can produce a morph? Just my thoughts.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

My, my, my...

Getting more and more bitter as the days pass, Rick...???

Perhaps you would be so kind as to post some pictures of your "normals" that look like this animal...???
If not YOUR "normals", perhaps you would be so kind as to post some pictures of ANYONE's "normals" that look like this animal...???

If you cannot see that this animal is an extremely beautiful example of a Black Back, I would hazard a guess that you may find a visit to your local optometrist to be both beneficial and enlightening...
There again, sometimes people only see what they want to see...
Don't they, Rick...

Personally, I could care less if you think this animal is a "normal", a "piece of cheese" or even "something the cat dragged in"...
You are entitled to your opinion...
No matter how inane I consider it to be...

If you reply to this post (which I have no doubt that you will), don't be surprised if I decide not to come out and play...
You're really not that high on my list of people whose opinion I respect...
And that is MY opinion...

My My My...... Sorry to disappoint you. Why would I get or be bitter? How could you get a feeling that my original post was "bitter?" It is your normal ball and I have no desire to pay that much for a un proven non genetic normal male. Perhaps we can both agree that there is great deal of variations of "normal" ball pythons. High gold, reduced patterns, etc.

How can I continue? Oh yes, in your ad you stipulate it as being "normal." You, not I labeled it. You said it was a: "1.0 Adult Black Back (pictured above)."

Then in your statement you said:
"This animal is an exceptional example of a Black Back.
The "Black Back" is not actually black on this animal...it is a deep chocolate color that has extensive fading." Got me scratching my head - black back not a black back. Then it came together dark chocolate.....The "Hershey Ball"

I asked in this thread if it was genetic. You did not reply. Therefore I assumed it could be a "dead end project." If perhaps it IS genetic I might be interested. That is why I asked. An albino would look nice with those markings. Hummmmmm?

It is a nice looking reduced patterned chocolate back normal. That's it!!! [until proven genetically] Maybe you selected it from a large bin of imports. It had to have stood out.

I realize you might not come out and play. You never answered my genetic question. And my next question. Did you produce it? I would think not. Why? Because of my first question.....Is the animal genetic?

And I feel so disappointed with your last statement:
"You're really not that high on my list of people whose opinion I respect...
And that is MY opinion..."

Now I will not be able to put my head on my pillow and sleep tonight. LOL Like I care. Debate is what this forum is about. Some can agree with me some can disagree with me. I just gave my opinion. That is all. A normal that is too expensive for me.

Like I said in my previous post spend money on a "real" morph. I think lots of people will agree to that. Why take a chance on an unproven animal? Or perhaps I just don't get it. With that price I can buy all of JY's normal black backs. Not to mention I will save on shipping too.

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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

You ever wonder exactly WHY I generally ignore your posts...???

You ever wonder exactly WHY I generally could care less what question(s) you ask...???

Let me give you some hints...

99% of your questions to us via e-mail or on this forum historically consist of one of the following:
"What camera did you use?"
"What lighting did you use?"
"How much did you pay for that?"
"Where did you get that?"
The sheer repetition of the same questions...over and over...finally reached a point where we said "enough"...

I was particularly amused to see your statement:
"Why take a chance on an unproven animal?"
The majority of morphs that are available today originated with an "unproven animal"...
Ever hear of the Platinum...???
Ever hear of Clowns...???
Ever hear of Piebalds...???
etc., etc., etc...
Every one originated from an "unproven animal"...
And before you start with your predictable response...no, I am not saying that our Black Back is as stunning as a Platinum, Clown, Piebald, etc.)...

By the way, I was just checking out your site (and no, before you ask...we don't have one)...
Interesting looking Axanthic you have there...
Aren't they supposed to NOT be brown...???
Guess you forgot to PhotoShop that picture...

Your photograph of your "Axanthic"...

Nice glass house you have there...
LMAO...

You'll Photoshop the picture on your site and remove all of the brown from your "Axanthic"...

Then, my previous post will show a wonderfully silver, grey and black animal...
Not the brown "Axanthic" that it currently shows...

You'll then post something about "Looks Axanthic to me"...

Guessing that I may have already downloaded a copy of the picture showing your brown "Axanthic", you will wait for me to possibly upload the picture to the Kingsnake Photo Gallery...
If I do, you will immediately report me to Kingsnake for violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) by posting copyright material without your permission...

LOL...

You ever wonder exactly WHY I generally ignore your posts...???

You ever wonder exactly WHY I generally could care less what question(s) you ask...???

Let me give you some hints...

99% of your questions to us via e-mail or on this forum historically consist of one of the following:
"What camera did you use?"
"What lighting did you use?"

Yes asked those
"How much did you pay for that?"

Don't ever recall asking price like you did about my spider.

"Where did you get that?"
I did ask that.

The sheer repetition of the same questions...over and over...finally reached a point where we said "enough"...

I was particularly amused to see your statement:
"Why take a chance on an unproven animal?"
The majority of morphs that are available today originated with an "unproven animal"...
Ever hear of the Platinum...???
Ever hear of Clowns...???
Ever hear of Piebalds...???
etc., etc., etc...
Every one originated from an "unproven animal"...
And before you start with your predictable response...no, I am not saying that our Black Back is as stunning as a Platinum, Clown, Piebald, etc.)...

Hey if that "normal" ball looked like anything above that you mentioned it would have been sold at that price in less than an hour! Your ball would be a dead end project if not genetic. If it was genetic it would be nice. Not worth the price to "prove" it out. Why don't you prove it out since you like it?

By the way, I was just checking out your site (and no, before you ask...we don't have one)...
Interesting looking Axanthic you have there...
Aren't they supposed to NOT be brown...???
Guess you forgot to PhotoShop that picture...

Yes guess I did..... I do not use Photoshop. I will be taking photos for my new site soon. I have a better camera now. And yes before you ask my camera is a Nikon 5700......

Are you saying my axanthic looks like the brown in your normal?

I will let the readers decide. "caveat emptor" I said all I need to say. I must get out of this glass house!!!!!!
What does PT Barnum know anyway?

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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Regarding your statement:
"Hey if that "normal" ball looked like anything above that you mentioned it would have been sold at that price in less than an hour!"

Not to you...

Don't you remember this statement that you made:
"Why take a chance on an unproven animal? Or perhaps I just don't get it. With that price I can buy all of JY's normal black backs."

According to your stated theory and views on the subject of "unproven animals", you would have NEVER purchased the original Platinum, Clown or Piebald because for the price that you would have had to pay, you could have purchased many, many "normal black backs" from JY...

It is apparent that you are only interested in purchasing established morphs that others have already invested the funds, time and effort into proving...
There is nothing the matter with adopting that approach...
Some are willing to take risks...
Others are not...
It is a matter of personal choice...

While you would have apparently chosen to invest the cost of the original Piebald in "all of JY's normal black backs", I would have much preferred to take the risk with what was at that time an unproven Piebald...

What's the betting that Pete Kahl is extremely happy with his decision to purchase the Piebald...???
Do you think that Pete is sitting there saying
"Gosh...I wish I hadn't purchased that unproven Piebald...I wish I had purchased a bunch of 'normal black backs' from JY"...???

LMAO...

A pied vs.. a Hershey Ball. Good one.
Paid $40.00 [at most] get just under 2k not bad.....good choice.

Like Janet Reno and Christy Brinkley.
No doubt in my mind sorry Christy.........LOL
Besides I am allergic to chocolate.

Forgot the axanthic is a proven SK line. That is the one I purchased.

BTW who am I talking to Gail or Nigel? Guess it does not matter.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Probably intentionally...
I don't know why you consistently insist on doing that on this forum...
Not just to my posts, but also to those of others...
Perhaps you're just...bored...???

My point - once again - is as follows...
At one time the Piebald was unproven...
You have stated that you would never take a chance on an "unproven animal"...
You have also stated that you would prefer to spend the price of an "unproven animal" on "all of JY's normal black backs"...

Here's exactly what you said...
"Why take a chance on an unproven animal? Or perhaps I just don't get it. With that price I can buy all of JY's normal black backs."

Did I ask whether you would prefer to purchase a Piebald or our Black Back...???
No...
I used the Platinum, Clown and Piebald as examples of animals that were once "unproven"...and which, therefore, you would have bypassed (when they were first discovered) in favor of a bunch of "normal black backs" from JY...
There's nothing wrong in preferring to avoid risks and follow the same, safe path...
Of course, the rewards may not be so great...

Gee...your brown "Axanthic" is the SnakeKeeper line...???
I'm sure they're thrilled to have you announce to the world that your brown "Axanthic" is their line...
Was it brown when you purchased it, or did the brown develop as it matured...???
Either way, it's brown...
Perhaps you got a cheap one...???

You know exactly who you are talking to...
There is only one person who has ever posted as "Renaissance"...

I'm all done playing...
You'll have to relieve your boredom by prattling on to someone else...
Perhaps you could take some more pictures of your brown Axanthic...???
Put me on the list for offspring from that one...
LMAO...

Sure.......
Sorry to post to you......now sell that normal!!!!!
seems like not to many people want to prove it out.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

You both have awsome animals. Why are you guys arguing?? I would trust Rick with my life if he said too, he is just that kinda guy, but why argue???

Please let me know,

Chad

You must have "missed" my questions to you...

Perhaps you would be so kind as to post some pictures of your "normals" that look like this animal...???
If not YOUR "normals", perhaps you would be so kind as to post some pictures of ANYONE's "normals" that look like this animal...???

Does this mean that you don't have any...???
And don't know of any...???

You must have "missed" my questions to you...

Perhaps you would be so kind as to post some pictures of your "normals" that look like this animal...???

Don't have any. How many do you have?

If not YOUR "normals", perhaps you would be so kind as to post some pictures of ANYONE's "normals" that look like this animal...???

I have seen similar ones before. No pictures.

Does this mean that you don't have any...???
And don't know of any...???

Boy is my face red.......How about answering my questions eh?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

What's the betting that you are already reporting my post that contains your picture of your brown "Axanthic"...???

"Teacher, teacher...Renaissance is saying that my Axanthic is NOT supposed to be brown"...

*Sigh*

JY does produce animals that look similar (every year), but just prove them out, and thats it. ALL you guys have great animals, just stop arguing.

Chad

Just look at all that brown on his axanthic. Also axanthic is the loss of red/yellow pigmentation. pic
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

I'm not a owner of any herps, just a domicile attendant.

My image Gallery

Xanthins are yellow. Erythrins are red.
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axanthic is the loss of yellow and anerythristic is the loss of red? what do you call those who are both (axanthic KSB's)?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

I'm not a owner of any herps, just a domicile attendant.

My image Gallery

How can you lose something that you don't have? I'm not sure KSB's have axanthins.
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Then why isn't a clown a normal?? Clearly, unless incubation temperatures did something to that snake, there is something gnarly going on in that reduced snake. I for one would think that having an albino from it or even crossing it with a Pastel would be dope!!

Congrats on a GREAT non-normal snake Renaissance!
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Buy it Jeff. Prove it out for us.
I like proven morphs.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

What happens when two of them are bred together? Or has that not happened yet? How about one to a normal? Anyone else working with these animals??

Similar.....[not same] for sale on Classifieds.
check link
black backs

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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

All the time! Oh well, at least they put pics up so you don't get ripped off.

Chad

YUP !!
See it all the time.I have no interest in fueling the already rampant greed of breeders out to skin someone on the latest Herp Fad.So a different colored snake is hard to come by right now .....BFD one day soon it will be different and all the BP variants will be as common as anything else.The reason is all to simple. Theres a market for variants and weak people looking for status in the world will sell their souls for a few steps up the ladder and buisness`s "KNOW THIS" Therefore flashy advertiseing/labels hook the suckers and help reel them up the ladder
Het,Pos Het,precentage this,precentage that :rolleyes:

PT Barnum was right........

I have absolutely noticed this. I have been working with boas and pythons since 1973. Just over the last year I have been working with balls (they used to be the garbage snakes!) It is rampid in the ball python market! Fake hets, fake morphs and what have you. The "newbe" is easy prey in this market. There are adds by certain individuals that I don't even bother opening anymore. I guess as long as people keep buying from these individuals, they will stay in buisness ripping off the ignorant buyer! Sad but true!

When I go out to the store to buy something......I want all the information necessary to make the decision......and I want all that info at my finger tips......I not going to work for it.

I immediatley ignore any ad that doesn't hit the basic information needed to make a sound purchase decision.

Examples........weight....sex....history........and for goodness sakes a pic....just to name a few. The buyer should not have to work for information. Everyone has to ask all those questions anyway, why not anticipate this and supply all the info up front in your ad.

It amazes me that people expect someone to make a $1000 plus dollar decision without this info.

Just my own little beaf....not very significant in the scheme of things.

Jim
Python Passion Reptiles

I wonder if it would be too much to ask of the board owner to install some type of feedback system like eBay has? It'd be better than nothing, especially when looking for the chronic offenders.
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Astronomy Picture of the Day

Yes there are more and more misleading ads. Yes, they are making up names. Yes, they are mostly normals. But No it is not breeders, it is the resellers. The guys that are in this for the money and only the money. The best thing to do is to let it be known that they are selling normals, misrepresented as a new morph, and over priced. As soon as they are not making money, they will move on. They only care about the $$$, not the snakes, not the hobby, and certainly not the buyer.

there are some PRO BREEDERS (not just of bps) out there selling het "not yet proven"? normals for ridiculous prices as well....but that's justifiable right?

I hear ya. Thousands of dollars for hets to a morph thats not even proven. I still can't figure it out. LOL

Very good point.

Chad

NO!!! That's not alright if they are misleading a buyer into believing that it is genetic. I don't see the best pros posting with comments like "might be the next morph".

What do you get when you 'Add' one plus one? Two!

That was a misleading 'ad'.

Lesson over.

MJ
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I sure don't.
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Ball-Pythons.Net

Did you come up with that off the top of your little head?
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This link classifies you pretty well.
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame59.html

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Ball-Pythons.Net

I think any ad that is advertising a "black back" that isn't an actual visible het for red axanthic is misleading everyone. Corey will soon probably be forced to change the name of his beautiful animals he proved genetic, why? because people are just calling an animal that has a slight increase of black on its back black backs. When they probably have 0 red axanthic blood in their body.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

I'm not a owner of any herps, just a domicile attendant.

My image Gallery

In all fairness which came first?

If I'm not mistaken the term black back came long before the red axanthics came along. On the sites I have looked at they say the genetics for the black backs are for the most part unproven, so with a little research a person should know what they are getting into (most breeders probably already know this). Also if you look at Corey's "2004 Offspring" classified he has "Black Stripes" listed that from looking would be the same as black backs. I don't know Corey and have never talked to him but if I'm not mistaken he has been working on proving his line as genetic which is great. This however doesn't mean he has the only line of genetic black backs out there. I'm sure if he is proving them out it has been a long process without knowing what to expect. It is a risk you take trying to prove out a new morph or animal.

I didn't see the original classified ad for the main snake in question so don't know the asking price, but from looking at the picture it would be worth a little investment for either the black back qualities or the reduced pattern qualities you never know. I agree with Jeff if it does prove out it would make for some awesome cross morphs.

George Knaack
GLK HERP