Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey rodney! Apparently the Military Times isn't waiting to see if the pictures are faked, huh? Maybe you should shoot them an email and fill them in with your concerns! Hee-hee-hee...

But seriously, if you haven't read this editorial in the Army Times, take a minute and do so. For those who try to claim that those who oppose the war are bashing the troops, I say: give it a rest. The military does what its told, and in the vast majority of instances, does so admirably and honorably. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Scocroft are the architects of this immoral war - they are the ones that should be paying the price - they are the ones that laid the ground work for these atrocities. Oh, I forgot, these "alleged" atrocities - rodney still thinks the pictures were faked

A failure of leadership at the highest levels

Around the halls of the Pentagon, a term of caustic derision has emerged for the enlisted soldiers at the heart of the furor over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal: the six morons who lost the war.

Indeed, the damage done to the U.S. military and the nation as a whole by the horrifying photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi detainees at the notorious prison is incalculable.

But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons.

There is no excuse for the behavior displayed by soldiers in the now-infamous pictures and an even more damning report by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. Every soldier involved should be ashamed.

But while responsibility begins with the six soldiers facing criminal charges, it extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership.

The entire affair is a failure of leadership from start to finish. From the moment they are captured, prisoners are hooded, shackled and isolated. The message to the troops: Anything goes.

In addition to the scores of prisoners who were humiliated and demeaned, at least 14 have died in custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army has ruled at least two of those homicides. This is not the way a free people keeps its captives or wins the hearts and minds of a suspicious world.

How tragically ironic that the American military, which was welcomed to Baghdad by the euphoric Iraqi people a year ago as a liberating force that ended 30 years of tyranny, would today stand guilty of dehumanizing torture in the same Abu Ghraib prison used by Saddam Hussein’s henchmen.

One can only wonder why the prison wasn’t razed in the wake of the invasion as a symbolic stake through the heart of the Baathist regime.

Army commanders in Iraq bear responsibility for running a prison where there was no legal adviser to the commander, and no ultimate responsibility taken for the care and treatment of the prisoners.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, also shares in the shame. Myers asked “60 Minutes II” to hold off reporting news of the scandal because it could put U.S. troops at risk. But when the report was aired, a week later, Myers still hadn’t read Taguba’s report, which had been completed in March. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld also failed to read the report until after the scandal broke in the media.

By then, of course, it was too late.

Myers, Rumsfeld and their staffs failed to recognize the impact the scandal would have not only in the United States, but around the world.

If their staffs failed to alert Myers and Rumsfeld, shame on them. But shame, too, on the chairman and secretary, who failed to inform even President Bush.

He was left to learn of the explosive scandal from media reports instead of from his own military leaders.

On the battlefield, Myers’ and Rumsfeld’s errors would be called a lack of situational awareness — a failure that amounts to professional negligence.

To date, the Army has moved to court-martial the six soldiers suspected of abusing Iraqi detainees and has reprimanded six others.

Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who commanded the MP brigade that ran Abu Ghraib, has received a letter of admonishment and also faces possible disciplinary action.

That’s good, but not good enough.

This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level. This was a failure that ran straight to the top. Accountability here is essential — even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war.

— Military Times editorial, May 17 issue
A failure of leadership at the highest levels

Give it a rest huh? There are allready threads up the ying yang on this and it's a glorified pissing contest....Geeeze...Somebody call an exorcist or something?

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hey rodney! Apparently the Military Times isn't waiting to see if the pictures are faked, huh? Maybe you should shoot them an email and fill them in with your concerns! Hee-hee-hee...

Yeah, right! Again, if the photos are fake, and the investigation hasn't concluded yet, would you expect them to say something different? Once the were made public, a response was warranted whether they are fake or not! And until the investigation is concluded, how can you say for sure that they aren't going to come out at the end of the investigation with the info. that they are fake? Again, why not wait for the investigation to end before making rash judgments?

And again, did I ever say they were fake? Nope. I said that a number of them looked "weird" to me. And the ones that didn't have that weird look to them, didn't have both soldiers and prisoners in the same photo. So some may have been doctored and some may have been staged.

Please look up the definition for "may" before you misconstrue what I have stated again.

Nice editorial though. I'd like to see their editorial opinion stating the opposite also. I know most soldiers think this is an abberation that only occured with a very small percentage of the soldiers and that it wasn't ordered by superiors very high up, just like the vast majority of the American public believes.

Rodney

Ok....What's everybodies take on the RED CROSS claims that abuse was going on in several other prisons (they visited 14) all over Iraq and that they had reported it to the White House over a year ago.....

Or more interesting, has anyone ever seen a Camel Spider? Big nasty over there. Someone sent me photos and WOW!

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well, if it's true, then it certainly is more widespread than was reported.

Interestingly, it doesn't look like there really was much abuse, from what I now know. I just saw a few stories about it, and now there is a completely different feel to it than there was before. It's nice to wait for more info. once in a while before jumping to conclusions.

Those prisoners were posed for the photos, so the photos could then be shown to other prisoners to try and extract info. Posing them just to get some pics. could be far less abuse and more humiliation.

That explains a lot of things, and makes me believe that that the photos are real.--though still possibly edited and staged.

It explains why someone would point a gun at someone with a blindfold, who couldn't even see the gun. It also explains the staged look to the photos---they were staged! It also explains why someone would take these photos in the first place.

It also may explain some of the inconsistencies I believe are there.(doctoring) I could easily see military intelligence editing the photos, before printing them, to show to other prisoners.

I wonder what the videos will bring to this story

Rodney

There's a lot more apparently. I caught a statement from a WhiteHouse spokesman who said that there were pictures of men being sodomised and of a Iraqi girl getting raped. His opinion was that things were going to get a lot worse. Also the president was deciding whether these photos should be released because they were pornographic.

There is definite CIA involvement.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

CIA involvement doesn't surprise me a bit.

But again, I will wait for the investigation to end to see if this is true or not. There have been allegations (about a week ago) that there were a lot of pornographic photos and videos that were taken directly from a "domination" pornographic pay site located in the U.S., that catered to those that like that kind of stuff.

Waiting to hear the soldiers side of the story, about the original photos, gave me an entirely different impression than what the photos alone did. Their story (posing for the pics. so the pics could be used to intimidate other prosoners) made everything "odd" about the photos make sense, while just seeing odd looking photos of abuse didn't make much sense at all.

Rodney

Like I said above....The guilty allways try to soft pedal their guilt...It looked to me like they were having fun and not much worried about the condition of their prisoners.

That's enough for me.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

And it looked to me like they were posing, by both their body language, and their smiles. And since this is consistent with the staged look of the photos, that's enough for me.

Rodney

These photos were made out of a sickening way of fun.

Naturally they posed for the photos!

Either to show it to certain friends when they return to the U.S. motto: "see what we did to the damn towel-heads" or sell it to interested porn websites.

What have you expected other than posing? The only way to get photos that don't looked staged would have been to take the photos in a cladestine way during torture.

But this was not intended. The photos were taken to brag with it later.

np
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Waiting to hear the soldiers side of the story, about the original photos, gave me an entirely different impression than what the photos alone did. Their story (posing for the pics. so the pics could be used to intimidate other prosoners) made everything "odd" about the photos make sense, while just seeing odd looking photos of abuse didn't make much sense at all.

WOW!, it makes a lot more sense now that you explain it! So they sodomized prisoners with lightsticks and raped 12 year old girls so they could take pictures to intimidate *other* prisoners - so they wouldn't have to sodomize or rape *other* prisoners. This way they might not have to rape ALL the 12 year old girls, just some of them! So it was actually an act of kindness!!!

wow.

WOW!, it makes a lot more sense now that you explain it! So they sodomized prisoners with lightsticks and raped 12 year old girls so they could take pictures to intimidate *other* prisoners - so they wouldn't have to sodomize or rape *other* prisoners. This way they might not have to rape ALL the 12 year old girls, just some of them! So it was actually an act of kindness!!!

What? You have seen those photos? I haven't! When were they made public? Are these just more false allegations?

Rodney

A U.S. General was on TV yesterday and stated that pictures of sodomy and rape do exist.

A spokesman for the president said the same thing.

Are They lying?

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Don't know.

But I do know that some are claiming that pictures of rape, etc. that have been running on a Muslim extremist web site, were taken directly from a "domination" pay porn site (that featured actors dressed as U.S. military, raping women from many different theaters-Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, etc.). The site was even named, but I'm not about to "subscribe" just to see if I can find those pics.) And since these pictures aren't public yet (and may never be) I don't know how the average person could then confirm it or not. But an investigation could.

Could these be the same pics/videso? Maybe, maybe not. Just because they exist, doesn't mean that it is necessarily true.

Again, I will wait for the investigation to end before making suppositions about our soldiers. I think they deserve at least the standard of "innocent until investigated" instead of "guilty by allegation."

I'll believe it, when it is verified.

Rodney

... what would be your excuse?

Exactly that happens now. Since they can not deny the happening, they try to extenuate it by claiming the photos were just staged to press informations out of other prisoners.

So the entire thing looks half as awful.

In my opinion we just saw the tip of the iceberg. How many cruelties do you think were committed without being photographed?

Keep in mind that whats going on now "that we know of" is over a year old.

Their is definitely a MASSIVE cover up taking place, and we would not have known about it, if that certain person didnt realize "hey this is sick" and turned the pictures over.

Their is definitely involvement with the CIA, and other High ranking officials.

After the photos surfaced, the Administration knew we LOST the moral Initiative.

RAPE TORTURE, and even MURDER took place at the hands, and at the command of US officials.

Their is no telling what "SICK" things are covertly being done to Prisoners. Not just in Iraq, but Cuba as well...

You can be sure that the prison in Iraq is a holiday home in comparison what happened and still happens in Cuba.

But in Cuby they keep the lid very close onto the pot. Nothing gets outside...

It's over a year old?

How do you figure that? Have we been in Iraq long enough for that to even be possible? (Considering we had the original invasion (bombing), then we had the major ground offensive, then we had to establish prisons/prisoners, etc.) That statement appears to be pure propaganda. The entire war has only been going on for 13 months or so!

And a cover up? Are you nuts? This matter had been under investigation months ago, and the press was told months ago that it was under investigation! Have you seen any of the hearings about this matter? Seen the enormous reports that were being prepared weeks ago (one was 2 1/2 feet thick!)? Do you think a good investigator exposes everything he finds before he completes his investigation? Ever watch a good "cop" show? Murder mystery? You clearly wouldn't make a very good investigator.

Rodney

Well, if you consider that what they said was an excuse, that's your opinion.

The two soldiers that were accused (that I heard about) clearly stated they were brought in specifically to "pose" for the photos and that they took no other actions. This makes a lot of sense because it is consistent with the apperance of the photos. It also explains why the photos even exist. Sometimes truth is labeled an excuse. Clearly someone is to blame for this, but after hearing the side of those soldiers in the photos, it isn't them. (in my opinion) But since I didn't want to jump to conclusions, and blame them like everyone else, until I heard the other side of the story, and now I have heard the other side of the story, I am able to make an "informed" opinion on this matter.

Rodney

They said they just posed...and you beleave them?....Come on Rodney...What did you think they would say? The girl's mother in an interview I saw said that her dayughter was "forced against her will".

I don't think there have been many people who have been caught under these circumstances that didn't swear they were only witnesses and not participants. After all, they do expect to go home one day...and be welcomed instead of being sent to jail.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Come on Frank, the CIA is involved (in your words) and you don't think that these "grunts" were brought in to be posed for the photos? Do you think these "grunts" are CIA?

I didn't say "they were only witnesses and not participants"

They clearly participated in the photos.

I said that, they said, they were specifically brought in to "pose" next to the prisoners for the photos, and after the photos were taken, they were then led out. They clearly weren't just witnesses, since they were brought in specifically to pose in the photos. They said they were also told that these photos were to be used, to show the other prisoners, in order to intimidate them into talking. I can see many soldiers, that would pose for photos, if they were told that they were only posing for them to help save lives. Especially if those soldiers weren't participating in the abuse, but only participating in what they thought was entirely staged.

This makes a lot of sense. Why would the photos look staged? Because they were. Why would anyone even take photos of the abuse? Why would someone unnecessarily create evidence of this? Why would someone let photos of themselves, with the prisoners, be taken? Because they wanted the photos as a tool to use in other interrogations.

Again, their story explains a lot of the questions I had about the photos.

As for the girl's mom, sounds like a typical motherly response. The girl probably said something on the phone, and the worried mother blew it all out of proportion.

Rodney

That just doesn't fly Rodney. Actually it looks like a couple of drunk soldiers having their fun at the expense of the prisoners. If you look at the exagerated body language and the grins...Hey I'm ex Navy...I know what a drunkebn soldier looks like.

Getting led in and out like you claim happened is a fantasy. The CIA would pose people better than that...and they would have the brains to realize the impact of such photos in the wrong hands. They would not risk that.

This is obviously an amateur job.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

We'll see. (Assuming you trust the investigation.)

Rodney

I would suggest you read.

THE HISTORY OF TORTURE By Daniel P. Mannix. It is an excellent read on the Psychology of Torture for coercion.

The psychology of torture for interegation is based on subtlty. You work on the imagination using pain or isolation techiques.

You allow them to hear the torture of others but not see the actual torture as it will give them an example to encourage them. Let them wonder what you are doing and let their imagination dwell on the screams.

You never torture or abuse in groups as a cameradery builds up in the group, which bonds them against the common foe. Ideally you want each prisoner to feel alone and helpless.

Since the prisoners were allready suffering abuse...who were the photos for...more prisoners? That makes no sense at all.

What makes sense is that they were taken by amatuers for bragging rights.

The CIA as I said would not be dumb enough to...

Take photos to intimidate prisoners...Any fool knows you don't leave evidence.

Allow photos to leak out. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure the damage it that would...and has caused. That's counterproductive.

Bring outsiders into the interegations...Or as photo props. Why should they bring in "Grunts" when they could get the same result using their own people in uniform and achieve the same thing? That would leave NO WITNESSES that could blow the whistle on it.

I apologise for being blunt... but that logic is just plain stupid and based on wishful thinking...and No Facts.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."