Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ive always called it the "Georgia Notch" but basically its usually the 3rd supralabial (lip Scale) that lacks any white pattern. The white pattern looks like it was notched out hence the nickname. Of all the GA's Ive seen they dont all have this but I would say the majority do and seems to be the rule rather than the exception ? Maybe someone who has seen lots of wild GA's can comment. The only snake Ive seen it on thats not in GA is Nick Mesa's Columbia Co., FL Eastern but that county butts up against Georgia. Any thoughts from the guys down south ? Ive never really seen it on Easterns from any other state but I have seen some aberrant patterns on the supralabials but not consistantly like in Georgia.

Keith

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hmmm thats kinda interesting,but the "notch" you refer to is at least IMHO an inherit feature of the whole eastern population regardless of locale ,but maybe it is defined in georgia animals but ive seen it in several fla.,sc.,nc.,va. animals as well ,i kinda think its old,old,l.g.nigra influence,regardless cool stuff,but i dont think its an indicator of a ga. animal,,,
thomas davis

If you read what I wrote I said it is seen in other populations but its not the norm, nor does it quite look like this. For every VA animal you can show with this similar trait I will show you 20 that dont have it from VA. I dont think you can do the same thing with GA animals. You are right its not an 100% positive indicator in itself but with other common traits such as low to no chains it points you in the right direction.

Keith

>>hmmm thats kinda interesting,but the "notch" you refer to is at least IMHO an inherit feature of the whole eastern population regardless of locale ,but maybe it is defined in georgia animals but ive seen it in several fla.,sc.,nc.,va. animals as well ,i kinda think its old,old,l.g.nigra influence,regardless cool stuff,but i dont think its an indicator of a ga. animal,,,
>>thomas davis
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and exactly what direction is that?that it MAY be a ga. animal because of a "notch" oh and low band count,,,come'on? either a locality is KNOWN or it isnt,guessing localities seems kinda silly
peace thomas davis

What are you talking about ? I didnt say anything about guessing a locale but simply its an observation. Everything I posted was mostly put as a question. Many locales of Easterns have a look to them if you dont think so you arent very observant. Ever seen a Outer Banks King ? NJ animals usually have very thin crossbars and lots of them so yes Thomas animals do vary but they also tend to look alike in certain areas or at least share certain characteristics and thats simple biology bud.

Keith

>>and exactly what direction is that?that it MAY be a ga. animal because of a "notch" oh and low band count,,,come'on? either a locality is KNOWN or it isnt,guessing localities seems kinda silly
>>peace thomas davis
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WOW!,, again its silly get a grip man!simple bioligy bud? come'on thats weak,have i ever seen an obk?weak also,,, your observation of the "georgia notch" is just silly kinda cute but silly IMHO,,peace
thomas davis

Thomas take a look at the Georgia pages there are 5 of them. Ive provided a link for you. Do you notice anything about them ? I would say 80% or more have very low to no chains at all with most being no chains but ringed.

Keith
Georgia Eastern Kingsnake pages

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Well, even though you're doing it from Wisconsin (lolol), this is how things are discovered;good old fashioned observation. Look at how many species (not just snakes)are identified by sublime differences, some only distinguishable by genetic analysis. It seems like you have a reasonable sample size and your observations are based on random samples (locales across GA)and not just cb kings. Keep at it, demand more pics, contact the Georgia DNR, give us more.
I suggest you drop whatever you are doing, sell your house, move to SOWEGA and do some FIELD WORK, man. I will look after your kings if you don't mind.
stir the pot with a big spoon.
Dave

Hey I would love to but my wife and kids wouldn't be much good at field work lol .

Keith

>>Well, even though you're doing it from Wisconsin (lolol), this is how things are discovered;good old fashioned observation. Look at how many species (not just snakes)are identified by sublime differences, some only distinguishable by genetic analysis. It seems like you have a reasonable sample size and your observations are based on random samples (locales across GA)and not just cb kings. Keep at it, demand more pics, contact the Georgia DNR, give us more.
>>I suggest you drop whatever you are doing, sell your house, move to SOWEGA and do some FIELD WORK, man. I will look after your kings if you don't mind.
>>stir the pot with a big spoon.
>>Dave
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yes keith i see them i also seem many in the sc.nc.va.pages that are ringed and w/low band counts,,so?,, also thought this whole thing was about the "geo.nothch" being indicitive to geo. animals? which i jst dont see the point anyway?guessing locales it just seems silly il say it again you either know the locale or ya dont and easterns beig variable as they are locale info cannot be determined though"notches,rings etc,,,,sorry
peace
thomas davis

We must be looking at 2 different sites I dont see hardly any ringed animals in the SC page and I maybe 2-3 infralabial scale "notches". As far as you cant understand the correlation of the "notches" and chain patterns Im not saying they are always hand in hand but saying pattern can be an indicator of where something is from . Dont you agree ? Pattern on lip scales is still pattern right ? If not then everytime you see a Florida King do you wonder if its from Montana ? No of course not because Florida Kings have certain characteristics that identify them as Florida kings. Thats a simplistic example but true none the less.

Keith
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yes keith i see them i also seem many in the sc.nc.va.pages that are ringed and w/low band counts,,so?

I again went thru those pages you listed and there are very very few with lip scale patterns like the GA's but yes there are a couple. The ringed animals that you saw "many" of arent there dude. If you can please tell em which ones you see as such.

also thought this whole thing was about the "geo.nothch" being indicitive to geo. animals? which i jst dont see the point anyway?guessing locales it just seems silly il say it again you either know the locale or ya dont and easterns beig variable as they are locale info cannot be determined though"notches,rings etc,,,,sorry
peace
thomas davis

Thomas here is my original post please re-read it as I never stated that is how I suggest people will from now on know a locale by a "notch" on their supralabials.

Ive always called it the "Georgia Notch" but basically its usually the 3rd supralabial (lip Scale) that lacks any white pattern. The white pattern looks like it was notched out hence the nickname. Of all the GA's Ive seen they dont all have this but I would say the majority do and seems to be the rule rather than the exception ? Maybe someone who has seen lots of wild GA's can comment. The only snake Ive seen it on thats not in GA is Nick Mesa's Columbia Co., FL Eastern but that county butts up against Georgia. Any thoughts from the guys down south ? Ive never really seen it on Easterns from any other state but I have seen some aberrant patterns on the supralabials but not consistantly like in Georgia.

Keith

Well.... Please dont put words in my mouth as you can plainly read I never stated thats how one can identify a GA positively. I was looking for feedback from people who are more involved in those animals down there than I am. I would like all to comment but if you are gonna shoot something down then back up your reasons with some shred of evidence to bolster your point.

Keith
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in the topic line you stated/asked about the "notch" and it being indicitive of geo.locales,, i simply disagree w/that the notch occurs in sev.locales.and guessing locales to me just seems silly,and i do backup and stick w/that opinion.
peace
thomas davis

in the topic line you stated/asked about the "notch" and it being indicitive of geo.locales

There you go. you see I never stated it as fact. Thanks for sort of acknowledging that fact without actually acknowledging it lol

i simply disagree w/that the notch occurs in sev.locales.and guessing locales to me just seems silly,and i do backup and stick w/that opinion.
peace
thomas davis

Again Thomas whats wrong with guessing a locale ? Youve never ever looked at any snake and had a thought or opinion as to where it might come from based on its characteristics ? I dont see why thats silly ? If people never asked questions like that about anything then we wouldnt get anywhere no would we ? As far as backing up your opinion you have backed up nothing. You only post the same opinion over and over without citing anything. Post a pic or a link site some research etc... I say if you arent going to add something tangible to the thread then why post ?

Keith
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tangible? ok whatever keith my opinion is the notch is NOT indicative to ONLY ga.easterns and the fact is its not, its nice you like to guess locales i think its silly, you asked ,not stated, and i gave my opinion take it or leave it but dont try to talk down to me like your all that have you ever even seen an eastern in the wild?keith? how much feild research do you have? ive logged over 1000hrs in the feild get a grip dude!i never put any words in your mouth and i fully understand your question/post i disagree,so what? im done w/this post,later
thomas

Mark Kenderdine's SC Female.

IT has as much black right there as my N FL eastern female.

dd

I thought Mark said the guy wasnt for sure on the locality ? Like I said you can pull up one or 2 Easterns with a similar pattern but I could pull up lots more than I posted of Georgia's that look like this.

Keith
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He got two female easterns, one from SC, and one unknown locale.

The GA notch is interesting though, my male Columbia county eastern seems to have half a notch there, if you know what I mean.

After looking at alot of those pics on my site plus another 10 Georgia pics that I have yet to upload it really started to look more like the norm than the exception. Who knows not that it really matters it was just an observation.

Keith
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hi keith,

I thought this would be interesting. Pic here (and the link below, to the other side of the head) of my 2003 hatch het/albino eastern chain king, the locale for which was very much a subject of interest (without conclusion). Very similar to your pix of echols co. and colquitt county animals, do you think?

terry

click here for pic of other side of head

I think I remember Tom Chaing saying he used Georgia animals to outcross his albino's with before. He wanted a SC Eastern from me because of the high chains and he mentioned that . If you ever talk to him again ask him about it as I may be wrong. Thanks for the pic Terry.

Keith
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Keith, I remember talking to you about this on the phone and I'm glad you decided to post some pics as you described it. I'll have to take a better look at those GA Easterns and any others I find from now on.

Wow!!! That is cool! I am bringing my camera and I'm coming down!!! OK just kidding of course! I know, I know the laws! I'm being sarcastic since I feel for all of those deprived herpers in GA! But still, IF a game officer SAW you "positioning" a snake for a decent pic (because they usually don't sit still), you could STILL get in trouble!!! I KNOW, believe me!

HAPPY IN NORTH CAROLINA, (but still LOVE GA!)

Zee