Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Rodney,

The atrocites commiteted against the American CIVILIAN who came there to make money for himself are terribly wrong.

And the IRAQ militans have promised more to follow, in retaliation for the ual and physical injustices, murder,torture of their fellow soldiers.Which was also...terribly wrong.

Retaliatio....thats a strong word.Bush has said that he would "Track down " the sick deviants that committed this heineous act against a civilian.Since their faces were covered, how does he propose to do this?

House by house searches, as was done before, with all the men of the house either beaten, killd or rounded up and interned? And I beleive that the CNN News and Fox said that they had a 90% mistaken identity rate,in other words, 90% of the men rounded up and incarcerated where the WRONG ONES?

Or maybe useing the same technique and covert action as was utilized to capture and kill that murderer Osama Bin Laden. Now THAT was affective.....

Bush just cranks it up a notch higher.
But neither he nor ANY members of either his, Cheneys Rumsfelds families have to pay the cost. Only working class soldiers need apply, despite the militaries volunteer policy, it is the working man that makes little that dies in these wars, not the sons and daughters of the elite. Witness Cheneys 4 DEFFERMENTS.

Just another excuse to deploy yet more troops.Another excuse to downplay the atrocities that OUR troops committed in the name of "FREEING" an oppressed people.

I thin your right, Kerry will leave the troops there also, in MANY ways he is no diffrent than Bush. How could he be if he is going to win, the public are led like lemmings over a cliff.

Prayer not necessary, active change would work better

Fred Albury

I found these, food for thought. ~SoBeK~

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The picture the media is now showing of the guy the terrorist beheaded as revenge for what went on in the Iraqi prisons looks odd to me. If you look at the men dressed in black, they all seem well fed. Actually most look fat. That bothers me, because these guys are fighting a war and eating on the run. They are constantly on the move and should be either very fit and trim or scrawny and malnourished because of the same reasons. One thing they should not be is fat like couch potatoes. If you look at all of the photos of the prisoners who were naked who supposedly were just plucked of the street, most of them are thin.

==

1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis

2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any
remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be
struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional
torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly
prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national
security" issues for witholding additional materials.

3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue
(compare with pictures at Guantanamo).

5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either
he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and
all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to
change).

6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg
sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with
hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost
motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on
the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what
page he's on?

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible
blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly
dubbed in.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.

I believe that Berg (or this lookalike character) was first killed (perhaps
by lethal injection, poisoning, etc.), then decapitated after dead (explains
lack of blood spraying everywhere). Berg was killed by Al-Quaeda (known to
be a CIA - Mossad joint venture). Berg video released at height of furor
over U.S. torture of Iraqis and just before Bush was to decide whether to
release additional torture videos. Now torture videos will be witheld from
public for reasons of national security. Now "patriots" everywhere will
laud the virtues of U.S. torture of "enemies". Sensitivity level of public
gets heightened in terms of what's acceptable treatment of prisoners.
Juxtaposed with decapitation, piling naked men into pyramid is nothing.
Such treatment will be considered more and more acceptable even in domestic
situations. George W. Bush sleeps well tonight while Berg family lives in
torture. Serves Berg's father right for opposing Bush and the war of
aggression against Iraq.

Wow, that's quite a theory!!!

I thought they looked quite skinny however, in the stills I have seen, anyway.

I've been trying to find the video on the internet, but haven't been able to yet. ---either it has been pulled because of too many hits--sites can't handle the broadband, or it won't work for me. I have DSL, but even that doesn't seem to be fast enough! (also due to excessive hits I assume)

Can you point me to somewhere that I can see it? I'd like to see the video and compare it to some of your points.

Rodney

Sure no prob, Is it ok for me to email you the link? I'm not sure if KS wants me to post links to such things here.

Thanks, but I finally found a link that worked just fine, so it's not necessary now.

After viewing it, I agree with some things you said and disagree with some others.

Timing is questionable--yes.

3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.

I thought his family was angry because he was being held in an Iraqi jail, and the American govt. didn't intercede and do more to get him released from this jail sooner.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue

I agree, that is very interesting. I wouldn't think they would change his clothes prior to murdering him. And it being is orange is pretty coincidental.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

This I agree with. He clearly starts screaming long before he even knows he is going to be killed. But, since this is supposed to have came from an extremist web site, "dubbing" doesn't surprise me.

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin

While they do look pretty white to me too, Burg is far far whiter than they are. This, to me, looks more like camera/filming problems. Look how white the background is. High contrast pictures (extreme darks and extreme lights) tend to do this.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.
I'm not sure what that means. If they all were Iraqis, or Arabs, I don't think I could tell that their posture/mannerisms were any different than anyone from the west. There are many styles of body postures in the west as well. I think posture is based more skeletal structure and balance, based on the body type in question, than culture. And Iraqis are pretty similar in build/size to Americans.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible
blood on it.

This, I disagree with, big time! I viewed the video twice. Once, small, and once, full screen. When viewing full screen, there is plenty of blood. The video I saw showed an area of about 4 feet square that was bloody. And blood was clearly squirting from his neck profusely when his throat was cut, and out his mouth as well. I couldn't see this when viewed small screen. Though I agree there wasn't much blood on the head or hand that was holding it, but it did look like blood had been wiped off of the left side of his face/mouth area. Maybe this was edited out?
But, little blood on his head makes sense to me, since so much blood had already squirted out on the floor, and his head was being held back when this was happening, so not much blood should have been on his head or the holders hand.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

I also disagree with this, since his hands and feet were tied, as well as him being held down, it would be very difficult for him to move at all. I was looking for nerve twitches and such, but the camera cut away to his severed head, so I couldn't view his body at that point.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly
dubbed in.

Also disagree, seemed rather deep to me, but again, it was dubbed, so it could have been anyone. And, it happened far too early.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.

That I agree with, but hair styles, beard, etc. could change his appearance drastically from his earlier photos. Especially hard to tell with the poor quality of the video. And yes, terrorist do try to get you to identify with their victims, to increase the terror effect.

Interesting points though,
Rodney

rodney wants to think about it....

I don't want to say anything until rodney arrives at some solid conclusions. We are all very quiet while rodney ponders this...tick...tick....tick......

There is a curious light on the one guys shoulder - another seems to far away, it might all be faked....tick....tick....tick......

rodney's thinking.........tick...tick....tick.....

rodney is examining the evidence .....tick....tick.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ooops, rodney dozzed off.

That's very imaginative coming from a graphic artist that doesn't know what a scanner is used for.

By the way, did you figure out what "most", "many", "some", "a few", etc. means yet? Nope, they still doesn't mean "all", check again! Don't give up, I think you'll get it right soon!

Rodney

I noticed some of what you describe, but not all of it. I think some of it is reaching but not all of it. The man does not look like the photos, there is no blood. The US had him in custody for 10 days - actually they claim he was only in Iraqi police custody. When he was released (the official story says) he was told to leave Iraq and offered a ride to the airport. He declined, explaining in communications home that the road they would use was "too dangerous".

He was a jew but his captors don't mention it in the video - very odd.

The US desperately needed something to "balance" the brutality of its side. And it definately changed the opinions of many in Congress who saw the rest of the pictures today. World opinion has been balanced by the images - a life is a small price to pay I suppose.

But I'm not going to pre-judge any of this until I hear what rodney has to say about it, er, I mean, until the investigation is complete.

How many "investigations" does the Bu[bleep]es have going now?

Try viewing the video full screen, and you will see a lot of blood. It looks just about right to me, though I have never seen throats slit, except on farm animals. I initially agreed with this point, as well, until I did so. It just doesn't show up small screen.

Rodney

I remember seeing an old Faces of death video of a man getting his head cut off. When they cut the main artery in the neck, blood sprayed. I did see a little bit of blood dripping form his head when severed, but not what I would have expected. I thought more would have drained.

But regardless

This will gain support for the US's actions on prisoners. I hear that His family is trying to sue over his death, and hold the US responsible. Have you seen that article yet?

Fred,

The atrocites commiteted against the American CIVILIAN who came there to make money for himself are terribly wrong.

Retaliatio....thats a strong word.Bush has said that he would "Track down " the sick deviants that committed this heineous act against a civilian.Since their faces were covered, how does he propose to do this?

First, he could have made money anywhere. His friends have been interviewed on television, and the have stated that he supported this war, but instead of supporting this effort by fighting terrorists/terrorism, he decided to help the Iraqi people by rebuilding their country. Clearly, people who behave this way, are not in it for the money. In my opinion, they are "above" most of us.

Second, the terrorists that killed him have been behaving this way for years. Call them what they are, terrorists, not soldiers like you stated. That is what makes them so dangerous. And increasing technology makes them even more dangerous. They have killed many people in very barbaric torturous ways prior to the prison incident. While they may be using the prison incident as an excuse to kill him, they would be behaving the same way without it. If the humiliation of the Muslim prisoners was so distasteful to them that it caused them to commit this act, how could they support people like Saddam who did far worse to Muslims on a daily basis? (Ah, yes, it isn't the acts they detest. They detest us, Muslims doing far worse to Muslims is perfectly acceptable to them)

As for Bush's actions to capture them, who knows? But I do know he will do what he can, to facilitate this. He has done virtually everything he said he was going to do, and he sticks to his word. Fortunately, many Muslims also condemn this action. Maybe one of them will turn in these thugs? Who knows what the future will bring regarding this matter? Why speculate that it can't be done? What good does speculating do? Why not wait and see if they are ever caught?

Rodney