Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been posting about my Savannah who has had a decreasing appetite for the last few months. I have taken him to the vet and the gotten a prescription of Metoclopramide and Maalox to get rid of gas that showed up in the X-Ray.

The last time he ate on his own was two weeks ago after I had given him the Metoclopramide and Maalox for a few days. He has refused all food since and a week ago I force-fed him a chick. I can't stand by and watch him starve. I have checked my husbandry and can't find anything wrong.

I force-fed him several pinkies yesterday because he again refused food. I would not be resulting to such drastic measures if I didn't think it was necessary. He is losing weight and the bones at the base of his tail are easily visible.
The strange thing is that his body feels like a balloon. He is very bloated. Is this due to the gas? Is this why he refuses food? The vet is supposed to call today and I will tell him the situation.

Does anyone have any suggestions for food items that are easily force-fed? The chick was NOT easy, but the pinkies weren't too hard to get down him.

Thanks for any help you can give.

You could try plain beef baby food watered down with ringers solution . You could also talk to your vet about using Hill's Canine/Feline AD mixed with a little ringers solution(it's only availabe by prescription not really made for lizards but it's formulated for animals that have suffered trauma /anorexia and it's made to minimize gastrointestinal side effects )

What has this monitor been tested for ? Blood work and fecals?
Where the kidneys normal in size in the exrays?

Exactly what are your cage temperatures for both daytime and night?
what are you using and a substrate and how often are you changing it ? (the are protozoans that have direct life cycles that cause intestinal gas and anorexia )
How well is this cage lit?
What are you cleaning your cage with ?
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

Oh I should not type and talk on the phone at the same time ..
Hate the fact that I have to use my daughters computer to access these forums because my computer settings hate these forums.(I don't want to know why the keys stick like crazy on this keyboard ...can only imagine what a 13 year old has spilled on it =P)

The gas does cause pain (it would cause you pain to and you probably would not want to eat when either) I don't think the gas is your problem though , your problem is whatever is causing the gas and this could many things.

It's normal for healthy Savs to hibernate and go off feed .
Under normal conditions going off feed does not hurt them .
Under normal circumstances they don't lose tail weight when they go of feed and hibernate.

There could many things that cause what you are seeing to happen. The only way you are going to find out what is causing it is to run a bunch of test and this is going to get very costly .

In the mean time you can do a couple of things to help the situation. The basking temperatures people normally recommend for Sav is way to high for an animalt that isn't healthy . If it isn't eating and drinking normally these temps can cause more problems because of dehydration . That's why I asked your cage temps perfect for healthy lizards isn't perfect for ill ones. Lower your basking to around 95-100F make sure your cage temps stay around an even 78-80F day and night for a while .

In the condition it is in it's probably not going to be able to digest normal food . It probably will be able to digest something with a smaller surface to volum ratio if you are lucky . I have had good luck using the baby food with ringers solution on some sick monitors and snakes ... I have also had good luck using the Hill's AD with ringers .

You really need to have this animal tested for protozoans . As many of them do cause gastroinestinal problems like gas and bloating and anorexia . In the mean time change your substrate as often as you can because many of these do have direct life cycles that keep reinfecting the host . Many of these are not curable but can be somewhat controlled using the right meds .
I fyou can get fresh fecal matter for your vet to test you can have him test what he regurgitates. The occysts (not sure of spelling ) can somethimes be found in what they regurge but they are very small and easy to miss so you might have to do this several times. You don't want to encourage this animal to regurgitte it's food as it also cause dehydration .

Stella
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

I am hesitant to try non-solid food items because I don't think I could get it down him. I was able to get 8 or so pinkies down him yesterday without too much trouble.

The vet hasn't done any tests except for feeling for impactions and taking X-Rays. He said he didn't feel any impaction. He didn't say anything in particular about the size of his kidneys. He did comment that there was a gas buildup and gave the Metoclopramide and Maalox to get rid of the gas. I am beginning to wonder if I should try a different vet but this guy was listed as being able to treat reptiles.

My temps are 135 basking, down to 81 on the cool side. I have been leaving the one (red) light on day and night. He tends to stick to the warmer side. He uses the basking spot daily.

I am using cypress mulch and dirt substrate that is 1 1/2 feet deep in certain areas. I have not changed the substrate because he doesn't defecate in it. He was pooping in his water for a while but lately I have been taking him out daily to make sure I can monitor his bowel movements and soak him for a bit to make sure he drinks and stays hydrated. The last two meals (1 mouse, 1 chick) he had he passed in about a week's time. I noticed a month ago that he had regurgitated a chick but since then he has passed everything I am able to get down him.

Part of me thinks the monitor is better off dead. But the other part, the one with hope for the monitor, does not agree.

You should not force feed that monitor. Monitors can go many months to over a year without food. They do not drop weight quickly because of lack of food.

They drop weight quickly because of lack of water. They dehydrate. You first and main concern is to keep the monitor hydrated until a vet can either fix whats wrong or the monitor dies.

You really should consider why the monitor threw up the chick. Most likely because for some reason, it could not digest it. Next, you should consider the bloating(gas) This is common when their is undigested food in the stomach.

So what do you do, put more food in there. Please, do not force feed the monitor.

Fluids such as Ringers lactate or pedialite, or even gatorade, can be used. These may be given with a syringe with a bit of plastic tubing. The ringers should be given sub-Q.

The REAL and MAIN concern is, why the bloating and requrg. If your vet could not diagnose why, then find one who can. In the meantime, adding more fuel to the problem is of no help and will only hurt.

A little analogy, how the heck would you like to be force fed steak, when you have a huge case of the stomach flu. Hmmmmmmmmmm FR

Thanks for understanding that I have the BEST INTENTIONS for my monitor. You act like I am purposely trying to hurt the thing.

Why did I post here? Why did I take him to the vet? Why did I force feed him? I am just trying to do what's best for him. I may not be an expert but I can tell when he is dangerously thin.
Like I said, he regurgitated the chick a month ago, but has been passing subsequent meals.

The last time I posted you told me that all the soakings in the world won't help but now you tell me that he is dehydrated. I have been moistening the substrate and making sure he is drinking daily.

At what point am I supposed to begin to worry about his weight? You say they can go a year with no food but his tail bones are very visible.

What do you mean by sub-Q?

First, its not about your intentions, that I/we, have no way of knowing and its totally besides the point.

The point is, its about the monitor. Putting food in a monitor that is sick and may not have the ability to digest, is not a good idea. Keeping it hydrated and in suitable conditions is about all you can do. The rest a vet has to do. Thats what they are trained for.

Many times, you will need to find a vet that specializes in herps. That may be hard to do.

Please consider and understand, that medical advice over the internet is not a good idea. No matter how well intented or experienced the person giving it is. We do not have the animal in hand to see the problem. IF your monitor has a blockage or intestinal problem, feeding will only make it worse. A vet has to see the animal, and find the problem.

If you want humor, going to the doctor, wonder why? just ate them beans and about to die, so so so, you give me more beans????

Please, its not about you. FR

I agree w/ FR 100%. Also you have not mentioned if your Bosc is deficating also. Monitors do release gas when they deficate and sometimes when they don't. Monitors urinate/deficate a lot of times w/out them eating a single thing also. As Frank said, any food you feed your monitor will create more gas in the belly. You vet should consider doing some xrays and blood work if they haven't already. Blockages can cause excess gas and bloating.

On the force feeding thing. Very bad idea. When you were shoving the food down the monitors throat, especially the chick, what way did you push it down? What did you shove it down with? Although your intentions are good, you intentions were for you not the monitor. You can do severe internal damage to the monitors mouth, and throat with your "best intentions".

I'm sorry. I know this sounds attacking. But please, if anything, think of the harm & the pain you could be doing to your monitor by feeding it now and force feeding it.
Best of luck
Christine :>~

I have said that he has defecated after about a week for the last two meals. He urinates daily.

The vet did an X-Ray and that is why he said he has gas. He said he didn't feel any blockages, and like I said he is defecating.

I used a soft rubber spatula to force feed the chick. He swallowed it after I got it most of the way in his mouth.

I didn't look at from the perspective that I would be causing him harm. I just want him to get better and it's really hard to stand by an watch him starve.

My mistakes on the deficating and the xray. Personally most vets won't "feel" a bloackage in a monitor due to the fact that they puff up and stiffin up when, in the monitors eyes, are being manhandled. That is why I asked of the Xray. Also my statement was a blind one due to the fact that every vet is different in the way they take their xrays and some will only do a film of a specific area. Do you know what I mean? lol

I know it's very hard to watch any animal be in pain and not eat. I have done many monitor rescues and whoa it's hard on the heart. Just take it easy on yourself and trust your vet. If you don't find a new one in a hurry.
Again, Best of luck to you and your monitor.
Christine

If it were my animal and it didnot improve in 2 weeks time after seeing the vet I would find another vet.
I would be very suspect of a herp vet that did not check for parasites or worms on a first time seen visit.
I would get fluids into him with some
asadophliz to atempt to increase good digestion and et him to another vet ASAP!
Diana

You are not suppose to force anything down any lizards throat , it causes them a lot of stress , stress kills. Offer food in a bowl especially when you think something might be wrong with them to avoid their food from coming into contact with their cage litter/feces . If he wants to eat he will , if he can't he won't . Force feeding him things like chicks and pinks is only going to make him toss his cookies more and loose more body fluids and cause him a lot more stress.If he is using his basking site then your cage isn't to hot and that's a good sign .Kidneys not being the size of Texas is also a good sign =P

I've never had a monitor , tegu , gecko or any other lizards I have kept get an impaction . If the lizards are healthy and their cages are set up right and they are fed right you won't see this happen ever.This only happens when something goes very wrong .

If you are finding your Sav sitting in it's water bowl constantly it's a sign that something is wrong .
Intestines full of gas , regurging meals , and losing a lot of tail weight is not normal. If this is happening you need to find out why as it doesn't happen to healthy lizards . You are not going to find out why this is happening on this or any other forum and no one can tell you how to save your monitor without doing test first . This is something that only your vet can help you with and your are either going to have to trust him or find another one.

Lots of things can cause this to happen - protozoan infections , bacterial infections , parasites , viral infections etc. improper husbandry with any of these can make things go haywire very fast. By this I mean like having to soak your monitor (I know a lot of people reading this are going to get mad ) but if you have to soak your Sav your cage is really not set up right . You soak a lizard who has a bacterial infection or a parasite infection and you can make it much worse very quickly . Honestly I have lizards that are 18 years old that don't know what "having a bath" is as they have never soaked in water all their lives .

These lizards are not like domesticated dogs who understand what it is to scratch at a door to go outside to releive themselves . Pulling them in and out of their cages to try to get them to do this can be very stressfull on them .If you find out that your Sav has something like a protozan infection you are probably going to have to keep his cage super clean for him to be able to get over it without contiuously reinfecting himself .... this means you are going to have to find a way to change that substrate frequently .

Unfortuantely the monitor you picked it is not uncommon for things to go wrong with and most of this is due to the fact that many come into the country already in sad shape.
Alot of people buy the sick ones thinking they are going to rescue them from the evil pet shop . This might save one individual if you get lucky and are willing to lay out alot of money to do it but it only perpetuates the problem for it's species since it gives the people who ship them into this country in this condition no insentive to change the problems that are causing this to happen in the first place =(
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

Do you feel a loose or hard mass in his gut?

Has he been checked for parasites? if not get a fecal done right away.

What are his temps in the cage? You should be offering something like ambients of 80's basking area of 130-150. If he is having troubles with health then you do not want to let his night temps drop.

Are you keeping him hydrated? drinking water, or soaking water, humid cage?

I have not seen your previous posts so the following possibility may be completely off-base.

How large is your monitor and are you sure it is a male? I have had a large female become bloated with gas and stop eating because she had eggs stuck inside her. The vet did not feel the eggs or anything like a blockage. He did x-ray and he underestimated the egg count. Just a possibility if your monitor is large and you are not actually sure it is a "he."

That said, yes, monitors can go long periods of time without eating. However, the individual who posted that to you did not include the context in which a monitor can go long periods of time without eating. Obviously from your observations and what you posted, your context is different than the ones referred to by that individual. Sick and not eating is different than healthy and not eating.

Force-feeding is not the solution though. You need to figure out what is causing the gas, which is what everyone else has suggested as well. I would suggest you may need a different vet. Your vet should definitely be checking fecal samples. Many parasites, when running unchecked in a monitor, can cause gas. In a healthy monitor those parasites are kept in check by the monitor itself. When tossed into captivity under stressful conditions or freshly imported/bought from a store (both of which are stressful) then the monitor is unable to keep the parasites in check. Medications and a good environment can bring the parasites back in balance, but your vet needs to CHECK for these parasites, which will not be accomplished with feeling the monitor or taking an x-ray. Find a vet who tells you to bring a fecal sample with you!

Keep your monitor hydrated. Soaking will work. I have soaked animals in pedialyte before but water will work too. If you prefer, you can use a syringe to get the pedialyte into the monitor. You can buy a syringe in any pharmacy in the baby section or by eye droppers (which you could also use).

Best of luck with your monitor.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

I've had him for a few years now and he is about 30''. Based on the picture that I have seen of a fully everted male hemipene, my Bosc is definitely male.

My vet has not checked fecals or asked to do so. I am waiting for a phone call from a different vet.

Is it common for monitors that have been in captivity for several years to develop problems with parasites?

He doesn't defecate in his substrate. Is it still necessary to change it so often?

Thanks to everyone for all the replies.

They can be deceptive and you could see a partially everted male or a fully everted female, and think both are male. You would have to see an eversion of both to see the difference, eggs can be a problem as the animal wont eat or not much for weeks, yet if bound up with eggs can kill the animal if not able to lay them or have them removed in 4-6 weeks or less. Proper nesting is difficult to get right without trial and error, one of those errors caused a trial of my large albigs life she wouldnt lay 44 eggs and needed surgery because the nesting was right too late, the dirt needs to be right beforehand. I could see the eggs in an xray at my animals vets office, but if your vet doesnt know what hes looking at you wont know causing the problem.
Ive had a few boscs over the years and they can grow to 40 inches in a years time, yet they range up to that size from around 30 inches. Check the ARAV website for a good herp vet or herpvets.com or whatever it is to find one thats near you.