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The Columbian motley was imported to Miami Fl. in 1994. It was Bought buy Ron St. Pierre. He raised it, bred it, and proved it to be genetic. Jeremy Stone bought the project from him, and has been producing motleys ever since.

My question is why have there not been more people producing them? I know Alex from Boa Republic has. But I have not heard or seen pics from others.

I know Jon Roylance has, but that was from his own bloodline and not from the Pierre line.

So is anyone going to produce them this year other then Jeremy or Alex? I would of thought we would have seen a few others back in 02.

Where's the Motleys?

James W. Arnold

James,

When I bought the project from Ron St. Pierre, there were Only 2 Motleys. One was the Original Animal, and the other was 1 of the babies he produced. It was the ONLY surviving Motley. That male never did well for me and has since been deceased. (His Head got Stuck in a whole at Ron's house, and he had this weird head problem and he was CUT at the head from this). I knew this and still purchased him. He just wasn't the greatest of snakes, and didn't ever produce for me. NO I don't blame Ron for this. He Sold me HEALTHY animals. Just a sudden mistake. All the Motleys on the market from my bloodline have been produced by the Foundation Male Motley that I still have today and is still one of my Best breeders. Let me give you an Update and hopefully this will help.

I bought the FIRST male from Ron St. Pierre (the foundation animal) in 1998. I got him late in Nobember and he did not produce that year. That summer I bought the other male which is the male I mentioned above. So, the next season the Male DID breed for me and produced Babies.

This is the 04 Season. So, this is ONLY the 4th year of Motley production. The first year there were only 10 Motleys produced 2.2 to Alex, and the others to a few select people. So, the next year there were Hypo Motleys produced and another 2 litters of Motleys from the Male. (He bred 3 Females that year). That year was the Year my Daughter was born and I think MANY know that Story. I was in the hospital 2 days and my employee took the day off. My whole right side of my Baby room was cooked by a Malfunctioned Thermostat. 36 animals perished including ALL of the Hypo Motleys but 2. Many other Motleys perished in that accident too. I sold VERY few that year.

The next year I had a Good year with the Male again, and produced around 20 Motleys that year. That was the year I had a female drop 47 babies and in those babies were 2 Purple patternless. One was a runt and was kinked up. He survived and actually fed for me a few times, but couldn't crawl right with kinks in his back and so we made the decision to put him to sleep. The other male is doing great, but we decided that since he was only 18 months this year during breeding season, and we didn't want to risk having him get stressed out by breeding because he is just too valuable. So, hopefully next year he will breed and that should answer some BIZZARE questions about the Super Motley and why it popped out from a Normal female. (I know this is off on a Tangent. That 02 year I sold a few Motleys and kept a few. With that 47 baby litter, there were only 15 Motleys. I got that shaft but was not complaining since there were 2 purple patternless in the litter. LOL.

Then last year I really didn't have a good Motley year. I had the male breed 3 females and one of his Babies also produced for me. They were all relatively Small litters. THIS also is the VERY first year anyone else had Motleys that were big enough to breed. That is VERY FEW people. Many people had the Motleys breed at 18 months, but Very few succeeded with a few people slugging out. I had an average year. Alex produced a few Motleys last year and is the ONLY other producer of Motleys from my Bloodline. The others I mentioned had either slugs or the females didn't get gravid. They should produce this year if they are fortunate enough to have babies. This year I have had 3 Motley litters so far. One was from an Albino Female that I had and got a nice litter of Motleys het Albino. I had 2 other VERY small litters this week from a Hypo Motley male to a Het and a Normal Female. Out of both of those Litters there were only 5 Motleys, and a TON of Hypos. Last week I bred the Hypo Motley female to a Motley Male (Not HER father but a differnt Male. He was a second cousin to the Female Hypo Motley). In that litter there were Still Borns and Slugs. 4 Purple Patternless with One being Hypo Purple Patternless. WEIRD. I know many breedings still need to be done, but I'm confident there IS a Super Motley, and I think it IS the Purple Patternless. So, the Purple Patternless has been produced by 2 different Motley males in 2 different Litters. One was the Original motley male to a Normal female. (I did breed that Same Normal female to the Original Motley male last year in 03 and got NO purple patternless). Interesting Enough, this same female was the FIRST female to give me Motleys from that Original Male. So, she has bred to him 3 times and only Once were there Purple Patternless Babies.

I will have a few other Motleys litters this year (as this is the FIRST year I have had more then 2 Males breed). I should have a few this year and other should produce this year too. The Motley bloodline is an EXTREEMLY hardy bloodline. Everyone who has them has had them do VERY well, and they grow very fast. Doug Matuzak had a Female up to 22 Pounds at 18 Months. IT almost killed him not to breed her this year but he did the right thing since she was so young, and I'm sure that will pay off for him. This is the FIRST year I had a Motley female big enough to breed, and I had that litter. I had 2 Motley females. One was the Hypo Motley that bred, and the other didn't get gravid. NEXT year I will have More. Hopeuflly I can produce more of those SUPERS.

I know this is LONG winded, but I have had SOOOO many people ask me this question. HOW MANY ARE THERE??? How come there aren't more with this being CO-dominant??? Well, I hope this answered your questions. I hope this answers a lot of other questions too.

As for the Type 2 Motleys that you have, Alex can explain more about that. I could tell that story, but He could a lot better. He took a big risk by buying that Type 2 Motley oversees, and it Paid off big. It is Co-dominant like the Columbian Motley. He has had 2 Small litters. I have a Female Type 2 Motley GRAVID from a T positive Albino (This is a Breeding Loan With Pete Kahl, and this is at HIS House). We hope to produce Type 2 Motleys HEt for Central American T positive Albinos. SHOULD BE SWEET!!!!!!!!!! That Bloodline is a lot smaller then the Columbian and seems to have more Striping and broken patterns then the Columbian Motleys.

As for the Roylance bloodline, Jon R, and explain that. He had a Small litter of those last year, and that was from a Motley that just popped out of a litter in the Mid West. I don't think he will have a litter this year from the bloodline. IT seems very simliar to my bloodline, and may be compatible, but that is FAR into the FUTURE, if it happens at all. Jon can explain more about that project too.

I have had a LONG day. Today I had 2 litters Born. YEEEEHAAAAAA, I big Sunglow litter, and a Big Type 2 anerythristic to an Albino litter. (My Awesome Foundation Type 2 female. That makes 7 litters for me this week. VERY unusual for MAY. June and July should be VERY FUN for me. We hope to have lots more goodies to come.

I am sorry so Long. I hope this answered all your questions. I'd be happy to answer any more.

I have followed Jeremy's Motley breedings and have followed the Motley market very close for the last few years, especially after making the purchase of 2.1. I know the group that I purchased is extremely strong, as other Motley owners have also commented. Mine really seem to grow like weeds with my 18 month old female closing in on 15 pounds and my 18 month old male (fingers crossed) having bred two females this season. Both females if good are due on the same day in August.
I think this is a great post because it lets people know the history of the Motleys and where they currently stand in numbers (quantity) and as an investment. I have heard some of the negative talk and rumors from people about the Motley project and Motley Boas and it has seemed to come from people that have yet to make the move and invest in the project. I can say I am very happy with my purchase and extremely excited on where it is going to go in the years to come with the Super Motley now on the seen!!! I can only Boa Day Dream about the new and exciting Morphs that can be produced from the Super Motley!!!
Congratulations to all that have had litters this season, and good luck to those still waiting for them. I know I am going crazy waiting for my first litter of this season!!! LOL

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Mike Weitzman
Click here to see what is cooking this 2004 Season!!

BASICALLY BOAS
'Specializing in True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'

Jeremy,
Does anyone have a photo to share of the over-seas Motley that Alex purchased?
Just curious,
Scott

Alex had a bunch of photos of the Central American motly on his web site boarepublic.com
sorry I don't have the link but that should get you there.
Jason Reese

I would like to know how you think the purple patternless is a super motley. Your first year producing them you bred a motley male to a normal? This year you bred motley to motley and produced them. Can you put it to the Punnett square? I don't see how it could be a super from the two breedings. I would think that from a motley to normal breeding there could be no supers. You defiantly have a good thing on your hands, I just can't understand the genetics behind it. Perhaps you and shed some light on it.

Thanks,
James W. Arnold

James,

That is a good question. I am sure many have asked this question, and many more will. Spontaneous Mutations usually don’t work well on the punnett square. Many other snake breeders, have told me they think this is impossible. I was baffled when I saw this myself, but It wasn't a Surprise at all to my genetic professor at Brigham Young University. He explained how this has happened more then we think. Although Rare, it has happened. I can give 3 explanations of this happening and also send you to a web site to where they can explain these genetic abnormalities and why they happen, but I can’t understand those sites myself. They are for ADVANCED geneticists. Since we all somewhat think we understand snakes, I’ll give the example in snake terms.

1. This happened to a breeder in Florida with Retics. He bred a Tiger Retic to a Normal, and he got a baby in the litter that appeared to be a Super Tiger retic. Of course this is impossible right? Wrong. It was. So, I can’t explain that one, but it did happen. Also, it has happened with the Motley in itself. I’m not a believer that the Father of My ORIGINAL Motley male was a Motley. If so, where did he come from? Where is the first? I know you would say, maybe in the wild, but I would think there would be a LOT more coming in if this were a normal trait.

Also, it happened to a kid in the Mid West with the Roylance Motley and it has happened to 2 other people that produced DEAD premature Motleys. It also happened to John Mack in the Argentine Boa. I would think that it could happen again. This Motley trait has thrown me another curve ball I believe, and I’m sure it will surprise a few others. Not only with the Super, but with something else I can explain later. VERY COOL though.

The Purple Patternless was produced from my original Male to a NORMAL female. Those 2 parents have had 3 litters of Babies together with Large numbers of babies. I have always been very low on the Motley count for some reason though. However, only 1 of the times they bred did the Purple Patternless come through. The other time was from a Motley male (Cousin) to a Hypo Motley female. There were 3 purple patternless and 1 Hypo Purple patternless. This has lead me to believe there is a SUPER and it is that. However, I could be wrong. I do need to do a lot more breedings to help me find out some answers.

I do hope to breed the First Purple Patternless male next year, and I also hope to breed More Motley females to Motley males. I should have 3 females that are big enough to breed. I hope this does help answer your questions. I guess the answer still lies in the Future. I’m just explaining why I DO think the SUPER is the Purple patternless, but I can’t say it with a POSITIVE. I just have this really good hunch.

Here is something else I did want to bring up about the Motleys. I have had a LOT of very small litters of Motleys. Yes, I have had quite a few breedings, and I Personally wish there were More Motleys, but I have found that when I breed a Motley to a Normal, I am ALWAYS on the wrong side of the equation. I have only 3 times had More Motleys then Normals. I know it is a 50/50, but I have only had it Better on the Motley count with 3 breedings. I guess My luck isn’t always good on the Motley numbers. I think there would be a lot more Motleys if I didn’t have that year where I lost all those Babies in my Baby Room. That would have had 10 to 12 more males producing. I have also found that My Sex ratios have been HIGH Male. Alex found quite the opposite in his breedings though. So, again, I think this is just MY luck. Lucky for me, most people only wanted Males. NOW, everyone WANTS females because of the possibility of the Purple Patternless. I have had more interest in the Motley then EVER because of the Purple breeding. Most People want Females now, and now females have gone way up in price, and Males are close to the same price.

I hope this helps James. Please feel free to ask any other questions. Anyone else who wants to ask, please do so here in the Forum too. I would be happy to answer them so All can get the story as to WHY I think there is a Super, and what it really is. I could be wrong though. Time will tell. Have a GREAT weekend. Take care, Jeremy Stone

Jeremy, could you post the URL of the web site you mentioned? The one that explains spontaneous mutations and other such things? I know a retired Ph.D. geneticist who can probably understand it.

Paul Hollander

Paul, I will ask my proffesor again. I didn't even attempt to go there. He also mentioned some articles on this. Dr. Lee at Iowa State University has done a Ton of studies on Spontaneous genes. You may want to pick up a couple of articles from him. That is all I know of off the top of my head. IF you do a web search, I'm sure you will find them. I will also ask for some and SCAN them and try to post them. Any Web site I find that trys to explain this I will also post. Give me a few days. lol.

Paul, I have always read your posts on genetics and tried to understand them. You know a TON on this stuff. I would really like to hear your opinion on the matter. Also, please go read my other post below Millennium Morphs. I talked about how this again happened to me just last night with an Anerythrsitic Boa. I would love to hear others weigh in on the subject. Jeremy

It is nice to see a breeder as succesful as you are taking the time to post on an open forum.

"This Motley trait has thrown me another curve ball I believe, and I’m sure it will surprise a few others. Not only with the Super, but with something else I can explain later. VERY COOL though."
Now you have us on the edge of our seats again, I can't wait til you let the cat out of the bag on this one. Craig

I appreciate your compliments. I do love to get in on some great Boa discussions. I am happy to give my opinion. But keep in mind, I am NO expert when It comes to genetics. I really amd just giving my opinion as to what I think.

Now, About letting the Cat out of the Bag... This would open up a WHOLE new can of worms, and people wouldn't even believe me if I said it. I have only 3 small breedings to go off of, and of those breedings, there were 12 babies last year, 8 babies, this year, and another small breeding of 6 babies. All I can say is this Motley gene is doing some VERY cool stuff. I'll give you a hint. It does involve the Motley Salmon. I would LOVE to go further, but again, I will wait till next year when I can get some better numbers. This is VERY INTERESTING to me. I'll give another hint. This isn't about how the Motley looks, it is how the gene ACTS when you breed a Double Co dom to a normal. (Double Co-dom meaning a Motley Salmon). I'm sorry I can't go into more, but that would then open up another BIG long line, and I'm not really ready for that one. I am still puzzled, but happy as to how that Purple patternless popped out of a Normal To a Motley. I can see how it would come from a Motley to a Motley like it did the second time with Good numbers, but the first one still baffles me. Just like I said above. It baffled the Retic Breeders when the Got the Super Tiger from just a Tiger Retic to a Normal too. Take Care, Jeremy Stone

Jeremy,

If this is an spontaneous mutation then how would it be a super motley? Also if spontaneous why would it show up again this year? As for your examples of the super tigers, and those anerys you produced this year, I know genetics don't always play by the rules, but it makes a good guide line. Paradox albinos should not happen and so on. But I still can't grasp what makes the purple patternless a super motley. Please explain more.

I hope he does breed for you next year so we will have learned more about it. Either way the Purple Patternless is a great looking boa.

Thanks,
James W. Arnold

James,

When you breed Motley to a Motley, you will get Purple Patternless. This is the Super. I don't know how to be more clear without being Blunt. This is only MY opinion. More breedings will have to be done of course. The Future will give us the REAL answers. I'm just really guessing off of very little homework being done. More homework has to be done before I can say for sure what it really is. I am confident though that there IS a Super Motley by what I have seen. Just like in my examples of the Tiger Breeding. The tiger works EXACTLY like the Motley.

So, when 2 people breed Tigers to normals and they got SUPERS, this is EXACTLY what happened when I bred a Motley to a Normal. For some reaoson the Penetrence of the Dominant Trait was revealed in the First offspring. Why this happened?? I have NO clue, but It did. That is all I can really explain. Hopefully, we will see a lot more in the future. Am I sure? Yes, in my mind, and by past examples. Could I be wrong? Of course. This is just what I believe is happening.

Again, Just like the Tiger breedings. This has also happened in Chickens, Plants, corn, etc...... Sometimes Radomly the Super can be produced by just a co-dom to a normal. That is what happened with the Tiger Retics, and that is what I believed happened with the Motleys. There is no other way to explain why I got a Purple Patternless from a normal breeding other then it was a Fluke. I do believe the Motley to a Motley breeding was NOT a fluke, and the Purple Patternless is the SUPER form of The Motley trait. Hope this helps. If it doesn't, I can't explain it any better then this. I'm sure you'll be more satisfied when we do more Motley to Motley breedings. Also, when or If that purple patternless produces offspring, it will be VERY interesting to see if he produces all Motleys or 1/2 Motleys. I'm sure it will be one or the other. Your comment about genetics following a code doesn't make sense to me. I get your drift, but it doesn't explain the Tiger Retic, the Motley, NOR this Anerythristic Situtaion. That doesn't explain how I got an Anerythristic out of an Anerythristic when the gene is recessive. I see this happeneing just as easily as the Super Popping out of a Co-dom. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes, genes don't always play by the rules.

Jeremy

I guess I'll understand it better after more future breedings of the motley and your "super".

Take Care,
James W. Arnold

I'm sure we will all know more from the Breedings. Now I can CROSS those fingers and just hope. LOL. Thanks for the fun conversation. Jeremy

One of my partners has a male motley he picked up from you last fall and he eats like a champ but just seems to be a "slow grower" lol. I was just wondering what the average length on your males when you successfully bred them? (when I say successfully I mean when they showed interest and attempted to breed, not a viable litter) I was just curious as I have a couple females that will be used on him when he is ready. Also thank you for posting all of this information as I find it quite interesting and very helpful.. Now to save up enough money to pick up one of my own..
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
.

Hi Randall, Good question. This is all really applicable to each animal. I had last year a 42 inch male breeding at 18 months while a 5 and 1/2 foot male the same age wouldn't. So, I think it really is an indivdual thing. Also, growth can be individual as well. I have had some females grow slow and some fast. It also has to do with the amount of feed and the temperatures I keep the animals. I think any male Boa can breed at 14 to 18 months if he has good size. However, Most don't successfully produce at that age and size. Some do, I wouldn't say it is the NORM. If that were the case there would be TONS of baby boas by these young males. Last year I got an 18 month old male to breed successfully 3 females. He was only 31 inches. (He was a Central American T positive). The first litter was a Slug out though. The other 2 were viable offspring. That was LUCKY if you ask me. I think this is also a good topic. I would love to see how many people have had young small males successfully produce. I know many have, but the main question would be is this the NORM. GOOD QUESTION: Jeremy

I know this has been addressed before but only counting your line of motleys what is the number (approximately) of them that have been produced to date? (I hope I have the funds later this year, my buddies male makes me jealous so I need one now..lol)

And again thank you for the response.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
.

I have never counted them up but I could go look at all old records and count them up. I don't know how many have survived, if all customers have theirs going well,etc..... I do know there is a Good number, but not a ton. I can say there would be a Lot more if I didn't loose all 6 Hypo motleys and 12 Motleys in the 02 disaster. I also had 8 motleys die of big belly syndome. the whole litter did actually. They were 9 days early. My guess would be 40 to 60. Maybe less, maybe more. not by much. 14 are out of the country though. In the States, I would say about 12 to 16 people have them. Hope this helps. I do get asked that question a LOT. I guess it is what started this whole thread. lol Jeremy

did you give him mag first?????lol thats wild to here.
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IF YOU HAVE IT SHOW IT. IF YOU OWN IT FLAUNT IT!!

James, we had purchased some Motley Boas from Jeremy and are expecting a good number of babies this year. Hopefully if all goes well we will be producing Motleys, Motleys het albino, Hypo Motleys and one or two more surprises. I honestly feel this is one of the best boa projects out there, and I would like to thank Jeremy for sending us such great animals.

www.millenniummorphs.com
Link

James,

I also wanted to ad this about BOA GENES. Here is something VERY interesting. Last night I had a litter of DH snow Blizzards. The Father was an Albino, and the Mother is a Type 2 Anerythrsitic Female. She produced a litter 3 years ago for me, and all the babies were normal DH snow blizzards. They looked normal in appearance. However, in this litter Popped out 2 anerythrstics. That is IMPOSSIBLE since the anerythrsitic gene is recessive. The albino is NOT a het for anerythrsitic. The Type 2 gene isn’t even known to be compatible with the Type 1 gene. I do know for a Fact that the Type 2 anerythristic I work with is a Proven Recessive Anerythrsitic. Can we explain this one?? No, I have heard of this happening quite a bit. There have been at least 10 people who have popped out Anerythrsitics randomly from Anerythristic to normal or albino or ghost breedings. In all cases, only a few pop out anerythrsitic. This is something else I think to consider when we always think it has to be BLACK or White.

I also just received an email from a friend who read that post. He also has had a clutch from a Tiger Retic to a Normal and out popped a Super. The weird thing was that in his clutch the Super was TWINS with a Tiger in the same EGG. So, again, this happened. WEIRD, WEIRD, WEIRD…….

Ohh, also about the Pierre Bloodline of Motley. Since the only Motley Ron produced from the original male didn’t reproduce, all the Motleys out there are from bloodlines from my females, so “technically” there is no more Pierre bloodline out there. I have had many ask questions about the parents of their Motleys now. I hope that clears up that. So, to everyone who has Motleys, your original Origin is the ORIGINAL Male Motley. All other Motleys have been the product of His offspring and my females. Now Alex has mixed in some of His original bloodlines of females he has been working with so, there are some good outcrossed Motleys out there. The Originator Foundation Motley is named “Norman” LOL. Stormin Norman. He does the job. I have worked hard to try to get the bloodline outcrossed as best as I can which luckily is easy to do with co-dominant genes. Jeremy Stone

...genetic stuff so cool and fascinating! Especially when you start combining 2 co-doms and double recessives with co-doms. Genetics will always throw unexplained abberations and spontaneous mutations at you no matter how much you've studied or think you know about it!

"Ohh, also about the Pierre Bloodline of Motley. Since the only Motley Ron produced from the original male didn’t reproduce, all the Motleys out there are from bloodlines from my females, so “technically” there is no more Pierre bloodline out there. I have had many ask questions about the parents of their Motleys now. I hope that clears up that. So, to everyone who has Motleys, your original Origin is the ORIGINAL Male Motley. All other Motleys have been the product of His offspring and my females. Now Alex has mixed in some of His original bloodlines of females he has been working with so, there are some good outcrossed Motleys out there. The Originator Foundation Motley is named “Norman” LOL. Stormin Norman. He does the job. I have worked hard to try to get the bloodline outcrossed as best as I can which luckily is easy to do with co-dominant genes. Jeremy Stone"

Basically this doesn't make sense to me. You state that since all the motleys available are from the original male bred to your females, they become your line....because the original OFFSPRING produced by Ron died. Okay, we all agree that Ron proved the trait genetic REGARDLESS of what became of the babies...drowning, stillborn, heads in holes, etc. What you said (as I read it anyhow), is that if I buy an adult male motley off you, and one of his offspring....if that baby dies, and I breed my "original" male to my NORMAL females, the subsequent offspring now become MY LINE. Because I bred him to MY NORMAL FEMALES??? Do you see where I'm coming from on this one? I could care less who takes credit for what, your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. Technically, that original male would be considered Pierre bloodline as it was his animal initially, and he initially proved the trait, so subsequent litters produced either by the original male or his offspring would still be considered Pierre bloodline. Is the original albino male a Kahl strain, or can Pete only claim that animals offspring as his line? Well, I am in a hurry, so I don't have time to evaluate this to much, hopefully my point comes across. It may all be a matter of opinion. Take care

Paul

Paul,

If you breed a Motley from me to your female, then I would say that THAT particular litter of Babies, IS your Bloodline. I could really Care less about a Last name bloodline. All I care is if it has the trait or Not. What I was saying is that the ONLY litter of Motleys I have produced are from the Original Male that Ron Bought. Not from his bloodline that he produced. So, "technically" I really don't understand YOUR point. Everything people have gotten from me is from My bloodlines from the Original Male. Motley is from the Corn Snake breeders. The Motley boa looks like a Motley corn. Ron decided to call them this because they were similar. Therefore he "coined" the name Motley. He also DID prove this genetic. When I bought them, way back then some other breeders said it was way to early for him to claim the Motley "Co-dom" yet. I certainly dind't understand why, but I really didn't care. I knew I wanted it, and I believed him and thought from his ONly small breeding it was Genetic, and was Co-dom.

You'll see this many times. DH sunglows, "#### bloodline" that doesn't mean the Hypos or Albinos came from him. It usually means Produced by them.

My point was because many have asked about the INBREEDING of Motleys. I was explaining that I have ONLY produced from the Original Male, and not from Rons Male. Therefore, I have more work to do with outcrossing them because I was not successful with the "Pierre Bloodline". (The Motley HE produced). I have only produced from the Male RON bought. Not produced. So, technically all Motleys from out there are from the ORIGINAL male that both Ron and I bought. As for whatever bloodlines are out there, there will be PLENTY. All I care about is if it is a Motley or not. ALL the credit of PROVING the TRAIT goes to Ron St. Pierre. I further solidified what Ron was saying in the first place about the gene being expressed in a genetic way by since breeding it many more times.

With the Kahl Bloodline of Albino. Pete Bought the albino from another guy. The ONLY bloodlines from that point on were from the ORIGINAL Male that Pete Kahl got. That why many other people refer to this as the "Original" Strain as well. I think it is ALL symantics really. I can see why they could be called the "Kahl" bloodline, because all albinos from that point on were produced from Pete Kahl Females, or females Pete Kahl owned. That is all I was saying about Motleys. All Motleys from 2000 on were from Females I owned and the ORIGINAL Motley Male. No big deal.

Now, I see that if a different line comes up that PROVES to be incompatible with the Motley Trait, then I would see the need for distinguishing different Names. Some people like to do it with Last names. Weather it gets called the Pierre Motley or Stone Motley, I could really care less. Just as long as people understand they are from the ORIGINAL Male. His Name is NORMAN. I could call them the Norman Bloodline. LOL. j/k

I guess it is all symantics. I hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings for calling them, my bloodlines. My intention wasn't to discredit Ron. IT was to explain bloodlines out there.

hope this helps

in addition to that long winded statement, I think a Very interesting Topic would be BLOODLINES......... Maybe get a normal consitency to what is what, and why we call them that. That would be a very interesting Post I would think. Thanks for bringing it up Paul.

Jeremy

>I also wanted to ad this about BOA GENES. Here is something VERY interesting. Last night I had a litter of DH snow Blizzards. The Father was an Albino, and the Mother is a Type 2 Anerythrsitic Female. She produced a litter 3 years ago for me, and all the babies were normal DH snow blizzards. They looked normal in appearance. However, in this litter Popped out 2 anerythrstics. That is IMPOSSIBLE since the anerythrsitic gene is recessive. The albino is NOT a het for anerythrsitic. The Type 2 gene isn’t even known to be compatible with the Type 1 gene. I do know for a Fact that the Type 2 anerythristic I work with is a Proven Recessive Anerythrsitic. Can we explain this one?? No, I have heard of this happening quite a bit. There have been at least 10 people who have popped out Anerythrsitics randomly from Anerythristic to normal or albino or ghost breedings. In all cases, only a few pop out anerythrsitic. This is something else I think to consider when we always think it has to be BLACK or White.

When I was breeding ringneck doves, I mated a blond dove to a blond pied dove and got a pied dove. Pied is recessive to non-pied, and that blond was believed to be normal at the pied locus. However, when I looked through the pedigree records, the blond had a pied five generations back in its ancestry. The pied gene had simply been passed down unknown to us. There is a possibility that something similar happened with your anerythristics. That's not the only possible explanation though.

As for the super tiger retic python, I'd want to have a breeding test to be sure it's a super tiger.

Paul Hollander