Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are my comments to someone who had that rare opportunity of observing a wild Eastern hog regurgitate a rodent. The rodent was unidentifiable due to digestion, but was about the size of a adult house mouse (note, these comments apply to platyrhinos specifically, but in no way exclude the other two species):

I just wonder how they kill something that large without getting knawed up a good bit. On top of that, if it would readily grab a live adult mouse in the wild, there should certainly be some mention of this behavior with captive specimens. I've never heard of anyone witnessing a kill in captivity. Carrion has been cited, but, by definition, that could simply be a fresh dor toad. I also haven't heard anything about hognose venom and its affect on mice.
There are some missing links (at least I'm missing them).
I wonder if those instances of rodent contents would correlate with individuals found near a road (was it the case with your find?). DOR rodents aren't exactly hard to find; I wonder if the feeding response would be stronger with a rodent in the earlier stages of decomposition as would likely be found away from a road. Interesting stuff. Shane

P.S. I'm not a regular contributor here, but I am very passionate about Heterodon. For those of you who haven't seen any of my posts before, I'm a harsh critic of feeding platyrhinos a strict diet of rodents (especially haired rodents). I don't want to get into that argument here; rather, any thoughts or personal observations re my comments? Also, if you want to see the report and pics of the snake feel free to email me and I will provide you with the source.
Brian Fry, if you read this, any comments on Heterodon venom and affect on mice?
Shane

>>I just wonder how they kill something that large without getting knawed up a good bit. On top of that, if it would readily grab a live adult mouse in the wild, there should certainly be some mention of this behavior with captive specimens. I've never heard of anyone witnessing a kill in captivity.

Just because nobody has seen it doesn't mean it can't happen... As to how they do it - plenty of colubrids will feed on mice, and will simply grab them and chew the proverbial out of them, without suffering major injury - most of the time. You don't *have* to be highly venomous or a constrictor to eat rodents, although it certainly helps.

Obviously, carion feeding is a possibility - it's beenr ecorded in a number of species, including some xenodontines, so it is possible in this case as well.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Hey Wolfgang, you're certainly right about the chewing part, but at least of our native non-constricting colubrids, Coluber, Masticophis, and Drymarchon seem to be the most avid rodent feeders. I've read that they use other tactics to kill difficult or dangerous prey such as pressing into the ground and beating onto the ground or other objects along with vigorous chewing. Sizeable coachwhips and certainly indigos should be powerful enough to immunize the prey (mouse size) from jaw strength alone. I don't limit the possibilities, but it does seem odd that (to my knowledge) a hognose has never attempted the feat in captivity (the others are well known for it). I wish I kept hognose these days; I'd like to test them with some slightly decomposed mice. Heterodon (especially platyrhinos and simus, not so much nasicus) are very difficult to switch over to unscented rodents. That they do take rodents in the wild (not often for sure) is well supported, but the circumstances are an enigma. I have a hard time believing it only happens when said rodent gets cozy with a toad I'm tempted to start another group of platyrhinos now. Shane

Well, I do have a large wc female southern hog who did not eat for the first 4-5 months I Had her. She refused frozen toads. One day, I had the idea to feed her a black hopper mouse. Well needless to say, it was gone in a few hours. I really wish I could've seen it happen! Oh well. I then got her really started on live toads and she's been a beast on thawed mice ever since.
I saw that post by Phil and inquired as to what kind of rodent it was. I wish he would've saved it to learn more about it. Carrion is certianly a possibility, but I did have this southern that ate a live hopper.
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A.C.

www.gradeareptiles.com

Thanks for the response A.C. Depending on which stage you refer to a hopper, it either could have or could not have been dangerous. Interesting observation nonetheless.
I found a DOR eastern the other day. I'll probably keep the next live one I find just to satisfy my own curiousity. Along with the carrion question, I'd like to raise some native mice. Of course if mice fail I can easily find some toads Talk atcha later. Shane

u got it, Shane. Interestingly enough, she never took another live rodent without scenting. I used the small hopper because I knew it could get dangerous with an adult.

A.C.
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Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

thought about that one a lot myself... i work for a herpetologist who has done gut content research on platyrhinos (but not extensively), and according to him they found mouse remains with some frequency....
i have seen pictures of a nasicus bite (the link is posted in this forum) and they show quite a lot of swelling... (if they are geniune, that is)
it makes sense to me that whatever form of venom they possess would also produce a swelling effect in a rodent with a smaller body size, perhaps causing the vital organs such as the heart and lungs to swell as well? or at least swell the body to the point of immobility? a snakes sense of smell is amazing as well, perhaps they are able to track a mouse after biting...
I have never witnessed feeding habits of platyrhinos though, so i can not be certain either way. I plan on doing some independant research this summer to get some credits towards my degree though, and have actually been considering looking into this... hehehe, let you know if i learn anything!!
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1.1 argentine b/w tegus
1.0 anery corn
0.1 western hog
0.1 leopard gecko
1.1 blue headed tree agama
0.0.1 ball python
0.0.1 western fox
And always looking for more!!

In regards to Independant research, that is! I can't tell you how many upper level DRY science courses I was saved from by my independant research on herps and fish in college!

Good luck!

let us know!
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Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com