Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I came home to find my little Poss.Het Porthidium.O DEAD!!
He has both his fangs driven into his back and that is the position I found him in.I still have him frozen in this position.Any insight would be great.I rarley ever have a snake die on me and I have never seen this.There was a small frog in the enclosure with him.Could he have missed the frog and nailed himself?? Mabey he got tired of living life in captivaty lol I just dont know.Thanks for any help in advance.Can provide pics if needed...........Trey

I have heard of snakes biting themselves whether by missing their target or just being in such a frenzy that they strike at anything that moves, including themselves...most venomous snakes have some degree of immunity to their own venom though, usually to the point where the venom has little or no effect on them...i think it's probably pretty rare for a snake to actually kill itself (unless it released a massive quantity of venom)...Gregg M mentioned one of his gaboons bit another (in feeding response) of his gaboons on the head and held on for something like 15 seconds, and did indeed inject a good deal of venom...he said the bitten gabby swelled a little at the bitesite, and the symptoms gradually faded away...no permanent damage. Very interesting though, you should post some pics...

AP

Common sense would tell us that since the main function of venom is to help in acquiring food, and since venomous snakes subsequently ingest their envenomated victims, then most venomous snakes should have adequate immunity from their own venom. I'm not positive of this, but I have heard of rattlesnakes accidentally biting themselves and dying as a result, but I believe the cause of death in these cases usually is that the fangs penetrate a vital organ. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.
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MichaelB

Having venom injected into the bloodstream and swallowing venom are two entirely different situations. It's pretty commonly known that humans can swallow snake venom with no ill effects, as long as that human doesn't have ulcers or any other way for the venom to directly enter the bloodstream. Venom is just a complex series of proteins that are broken down in the digestive system just like anything else. So the fact that snakes can swallow it doesn't mean they are immune, as we certainly are not immune either. There have been numerous cases where a snake has bitten itself or another of the same species (and other species) and envenomatic symptoms have occurred. I have had a monocled cobra bite another of larger size and saw nearly immediate swelling. This swelling did subside over a period of a few hours, but the fact is that it was an effect of the venom. MsTT has posted picture documentation of a large Egyptian cobra she has (had?) that bit itself and caused a pretty nasty abcess that had to be removed. Maybe she could get on here and provide a better description of the actual case. Also, you can go to venomousreptiles.org and see an article written by Susan Hunter in which she describes an attempted mating of her rinkhals spitters wherein the male envenomated and killed the female during copulation. Anyway, hope this helps.
-Chance

I forgot about the ability to ingest venom orally without it entering the bloodstream (although I don't think I'll try it any time soon! ) . So much for common sense. Thanks, Chance - good info!
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MichaelB

Swallow away, although, it tastes like crap!!!LOL...

Chad

Thanks for your info.I had never seen this before.I will try to post some better pics if it helps.I hope I never see this again.I have had snakes bite themselves and bite others,but nothing like this.I know this little guy had pretty good size fangs.He couldnt even get them out of his back??? Either way here is about the best pic I could get from my camera.This is the exact position I found him in.Each fang is on either side of his spine.His bottom jaw is in contact with his belly(full bite).
Again thanks for your time and info.

Trey Small

I don't think that is really a case of him envenomating himself. I agree with the post above regarding the snake reacting to other stimuli. I have seen things like that from extreme heat exposure, virus, last stages of an animals death throws.... I think I would have some tests run on that animal, OPMV really jumps into my mind.....but not envenomation. That species of snake does not "bite" per say, it, like many a viperid merely stabs its target. Also, look at the unnatural pose of the tail. My worthless 2 cents says, the animal was in a death throw. You say it was in with a frog?? I don't remember if you said what species of frog, but the toxins from frogs, especially ones not sharing the same range as the snake can cause many problems, especially if the snake was drinking from a frog contaminated water dish.....something to think about.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Hey look we agree on something!!! Ouch!!!

Chad Bachman

What you have described does happen. The scenario is thought to go something like this. There is an underlying disease process that causes the snake pain or irritation in its body. The snake turns and strikes at what it percieves as the source of that pain. Snakes do have partial immunity to their own venom in some cases, but self envenomation certainly can cause some damage.

Self envenomations are also the result of a simple missed strike, where the snake is aiming at a food item or a keeper and hits itself instead. They don't seem to always figure out that they've bitten themselves and they may well hang on, chew and envenomate.

You might want to do a necropsy to see what you can learn from this case.

I do have my atheris bit and killed herself but I don't know why it happen. I agree with MSTT as one time I saw my gaboon hook strike and bit herself ,blood came out instantly. Fortunately there was no swelling at all, just a puncture wound only and it healed up good. I can imagine if her long fangs puncture a vital organ, the result will be much more damaging.

kog