Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My first clutch of hypo coastals hatched this morning! It was a small clutch (7)from a het to het breeding but still produced three hypos from the effort. I must say that the time spent outbreeding this line was put to good use. These neonates are large and robust! To me they are a quantum lead over the inbred line I originally acquired. Special thanks to Steve Fuller and Gerry Sammons for helping me put this breeding group together.

Tony,

I must say the key word to your post that caught my eye was "Outbred". It is a shame most people do not outbreed/outcross enough to strengthen (sp?) mutations.

If someone could explain why such a rush to produce the end result.

I applaud you for taking the time to outbreed. Your hatchlings are now worth that much more (Quality people, not money!)compared to other inbred Hypos out there.

Marc
SbS

Congrats Tony
"Thats great " and you got 3 hypos .
I'am doing the same this year with Hypo Red Milks . I bred het to het even though I have a pair of Proven Hypos .I out cross a lot of color morphs in other stuff as well .Its a lot of work but I think will be worth it in the end .
I can only hope I get Tonys good odds .

Take Care guys

jason

Kudos to Tony for his project of outbreeding. I heard the hypo lines were weak, somewhat like the albino nasicus a few years back. It's just a matter of "how quickly can I cash in on my investment?" This is the reason I stay away from the "cash animals" which are kept and bred purely for cash return (albino balls and boas, albino western hogs, etc). But don't get me started on that topic, lol!
We'd love to see some pics, Tony!
-----
A.C.

www.gradeareptiles.com

Monetary/material gain will always outweight quality animals!

Well said

Don't know about the hogs, but albino balls have been around a while and their high initial price and low reproductive rates have led to extensive outcrossings with imported female balls... the first few breeders who got any albino balls generally got males and het males and crossed them to multiple unrelated wild bred/farm hatched females. Each time these babies were then sold, the process was repeated out of necessity as the price for female albinos and het albinos were prohibitive to many.

Albino balls are strong little buggers... as a general rule.

I don't doubt that about regius, as I know little about them. I was using them as an example of a "Cash animal," which is pumped out as quick as possible to make money before the market goes down.

btw, thanks Marc
-----
A.C.

www.gradeareptiles.com

While Tony and I have had our differences about "outbreeding"in the past,I think it fair to say that attrition in this "ssp"is due to more obvious things than "inbreeding".Firstly,there has been "only"2-3 generations POSSIBLY inbred--and MOST of the first breeders only bred homoXhet so that only 3/4 of the genes COULD have been passed along.I think the problems with this "ssp"in the past has been inexperienced keepers,VERY delicate babies,and parasitation due to compromising feeding regimes.This morph has been around since about 1990 and there STILL arent that many around because they simply CANT be mass produced like other snakes so that even the "EXPERTS"who can afford them lose them consistently enough to develop a following.Those who HAVE bred them are also keeping the price high enough to avoid continued attrition,in this case a GOOD thing.
With the "degree"of outcrossing Tony chosen(with NJ&NC X MD blood)any LOCALE breeders should be well aware of each founding animals'differing lines.I say this only because this "ssp"was known as BOTH "temporalis"AND "Diodata",so in many circles this outcrossing is either a man made "cross"OR a "intergrade" depending upon whose definition you subscribe to.Tony,no offense here buddy,lol,this one isnt about you at all.Simply NOT enough temp people around anymore to harass.Jeff

why would you consider a temp (with NJ&NC X MD blood)to be a hybrid or integrade? Diodata?

If they're all temporalis, shouldn't it just be generic? Was there confusion on the origins of temps in different regions?
-----
A.C.

www.gradeareptiles.com

AC,temporalis is problematical to begin with as everyone knows.The differing locale types have proved that.Diodata was the nominant form of the NC coastals before temporalis overtook it,before being sunk by Williams.There are people looking into the DNA of these and I wish they would hurry up and be more forthcoming with ANY intrinsic evidence of subspecific groupings.To NOW cross these locales when/if evidence supports further splitting would be very counter productive to all that founded these locales and morphs and their attempts to keep lines pure.THIS IS NOT to say that locale crossing shouldnt be done,this is to say that maybe NOW isnt the right time to do it.We should be close to some real answers that have bugged us all for a long time."OUTCROSSING" to instill hybrid vigor is not a responsible way to manage problematical species or ssp..If it is to occur than "crosses","intergrades"and "hybrids"should occur within such a discussion.THAT is not to say that hybrids are BAD either,just know that you cant have it BOTH WAYS.Dealing with rare and unique critters like these will always be a challenge and should be.CREATING new lines to make them easier to deal with for the consuming public is the discussion we should be having.I hope Tony can see that I am trying to straddle the line here and doesnt BASH ME,lol.PLEASE,everything is cool,lol,continue your best efforts on our hypo coastal eggs!Maybe my point will be moot,but if evidence supports the subspecification of elapasoides,diodata,temporalis,etc then contamination of the gene pool will exist at a very unhealthy level.Obtaining and reproducing new wc lines is about the hardest of any in North America.These are far rarer than even LA pines.Just something to think about,Jeff

Wow, that's a bold statement. I have always deemed the 2 rarest snakes (though with full ranges in the US) to be the LA and black pine. Coastal plains have a larger range, and although they are very fossorial in habitat, you do see people finding them from time to time. However, I have never seen ANYONE ever catch a black or LA pine and have only heard one account of a herper catching a LA pine.
I think its safe to say that Tony's coastals are pure temporalis unless proven otherise (Innocent until proven guilty), though I know we all agree that they should be represented as mixed locale.
-----
Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

Gee Jeff I wish you had made your insights as well known before leaving your Calvert hypo with me on breeding loan. Now I’ll have to freeze YOUR half of the neonates. I couldn’t sleep with myself knowing that I was part responsible for corrupting your principals.

but geez, tony, if you can't sleep with yourself, it's gonna be hard to get any sleep at all. bummer.

and a.c., i understand you were waxing philosophical, but citing a species like the ball python to support your argument, and then backing off immediately when good DATA and EVIDENCE! (drumroll!!!) are presented, and saying well, you were only using that as an example, is sorta lame. we've all gotta avoid that sort of argumentation. Unchallenged, it would have simply been misleading to a lot of people. (yeah, my back's up too, cause people use those sort of convenient arguments the first time a clutch of snow or ghost honduran eggs doesn't have 100% fertility--"inbreeding" and "greed" they holler, overlooking the fact that every ghost or snow is the result of a very recent and DRAMATIC outcross (hypo line to anery, etc., etc.) which turns the argument on its ear and reveals the fact that the argument's groundless. I get the impression from other things you said, a.c., that you're a pretty knowledgeable guy. So I'll probably be turning to you for info & opinions someday (soon!)...just be cautious with the unfounded arguments. We all need to be guarded about that.

peace
terry

Terry,

I merely used p. regius as a point because it is a cash crop. I don't see where the misunderstanding was??? I believe they are one of the species that are killing this hobby by people "whoring" their snakes to make a quick buck (See P. guttata, formerly E. guttata). I know a lot of people feel otherwise, and that's cool. I just don't want things like fads and commercialism in this hobby. I like the "underground" feeling that this hobby used to have. Seeing the same snake in 40 different man made "phases" does not do it for me. Don't even get me started on those crazy looking hybrids! lol Some people love that stuff, and while I still love the people, I cannot agree with them.
Albino hogs were (Are?) one of the spp that were produced as quick as possible to make money. In the end, the guys made the $$, but the buyers were left with weak, small, INBRED animals that were hard to get going. That I have a problem with.

Also, what if someone says that a "DRAMATIC outcross (hypo line to anery, etc., etc.)" had low fertility because it was a combination of weaker, somewhat inbred lines??? I have no reason to state that...it may or may not be... but it sure as heck would make sense! Think about it!
However, 100% fertility with ANY snake is hard enough to attain in captivity!
Finally, some people might think that you calling me out and then backing out at the end while calling me a "pretty knowledgeable guy" is kinda lame.LOL. J/k Terry. I couldnt resist! I respect you and your work. It's all love.
-----
Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

Agreed, inbreeding isn't always the cause of fertility issues nor is outbreeding always the answer. BTW having committed myself to a solution, I sleep just fine.

Please dont kill our eggs!LOL.Just cant resist a good temporalis arguement,we just dont get them enough anymore.You have had as much success as many with temps so you dont need my blessing to continue to pursue whatever line you desire.There is plenty of room here for non-locales.Keep up the good work!Jeff

Didn't say I'd kill the eggs just freeze your neonates! I'll be sure to greedily pick out the hypo half for myself.

Tony,you can tell me you are kidding any time now.Just making lively discussion,you know that.Thanks,Jeff