Reptile & Amphibian Forums

well, i've decided i'd like to work with venomous snakes and milk them for venom (to create anti-venom)as a career.
question is, does anyone know what degrees i'd need? how much schooling...and the like.
and any good schools that offer these classes.
any help would be nice.
thanks,
snake_dork

G'day mate,

For doing just venom sales, you'd be lucky to make any $ out it unless you can get ahold of rare species for which the venom is in great demand. If you can double it up with a reptile breeding buisiness, part, etc. that would certainly increase the viability. Alternately, you can get a Ph.D. and do venom research yourself

Cheers
B

------------------------------

Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
Department of Pharmacology
University of Melbourne
Parkville, Vic
3010 Australia
Phone 61 3 8344 7753
Fax 61 3 9348 2048
Venom & Toxin Database

So, are you talking about setting up in business for yourself, or getting a job milking for an established outfit? The cost and difficulty of acquiring the animals for which venom is in demand plus maintaining, milking and marketing seems prohibitive. On a much simpler level,I charge for reptile shows, and report it as income, but could not make a living out of it, even assuming I quit my day job and could book enough shows to keep me busy full-time. I "lose money" in a sense on my herps, but that's an entertainment expense, not a business loss. My wife takes cruises, I keep herps. We tease each other about throwitn money away. Turning a hobby into a profitable career is a universal dream, but seldom works out. The tone of your post sounds like a "dream job" scenario. But hey, go for it! At worst, you'll have fun expanding your interest, and probably a bank won't give you a small business startup loan unless you produce some solid figures showing it's feasible.
MiserMike

working for an established lab. i don't think i could do the business myself.

Also you have to be ready to take a bite or two average one bite per year even the best milker.
I am just a novice only 30 years in it.and have been bitten too many times to count.

Last year alone I got bit by blacknecked spitters [in eyes also],death adder,eastern diamond back,green mambas, mojave rattler,horned viper,massagagua,atrox/mojave hybrid BAD!
I might have missed a couple
these are not dry bites,they seldom happen unfourtunatly.
Its not the safest hobby.
This year zero bites!crossing scarred fingers.
also if you dont want to end up in the hospital every time you get bit you have to self innoculate, pleaze no questions on it ok.
bud

There are a few points we would like to make.
First, there are only a few legitimate labs in the US that produce venom which is actually used in research by universitites or pharmaceutical companies. These labs are businesses which have to have workers' comp, liability insurance, etc. Therefore they rarely hire others to do the extractions; it is generally the owner or director only. All training is done in-house and usually only after an employee has been there for several years. Most places require two years experience at the facility before even beginning to teach venomous husbandry. At least a bachelor's degree in biology or zoology is required. You can not learn to handle any animals in college- there are no such courses. There are many people who want to milk for a living- we get asked about it at least once a week. Obviously not everyone can do it.
In response to other's comments- BGF mentioned becoming a researcher yourself- that's certainly a possibility but realize you then need a Ph.D. That's really the best course of action, in our opinion.
In regards to Bud's comments, the average bite rate is probably one to two per year. However, bites are due to carelessness and making mistakes. We know of a doctor who worked for a German company extracting from pitvipers, who maintained 3000 animals at one time. He worked there for over 30 years and was only bitten once the entire time, and that was by a juvenile he was force-feeding, not during an extraction. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy to assume you will be bitten, but you still have to realize it is an inherent risk. Our director has been bitten only twice while extracting, and he's been extracting for 27 years with an average of 600 per week. We maintain one of the largest collections of venomous snakes in the US (currently 1100 animals). His total bites number 15. Seven bites occurred in his 'early years' before he recieved proper training and were from copperheads. One was during a feeding incident, two were during the extractions previously mentioned, and the others were during medical procedures. He freely admits his stupid mistakes which caused these bites, and maintains that bites during normal husbandry are almost always preventable. The KY Reptile Zoo has been in existance for 13 years and there have been 7 bites since its founding, all the ones described above and never to an employee. We have trained several people who currently work at zoos and they have yet to be bitten (knock on wood.)
We would also like to mention that there is no reason to pin a snake other than a medical procedure or extraction. Most medical procedures can be done using tubes, and extraction is only legitimate if the venom is indeed being used in research. Showing off is not a reason.
Please realize that pharmaceutical companies have many regulations regarding who they can purchase any biological product from, and they need assurance that we meet these requirements. Most people do not have the resources to meet these rules and so can not provide. Plus, the demand is small, which is why we are a non-profit, and supplement our venom income with educational programs and exhibit. It would be nice to get rich doing this, but that's never going to happen. Our director actually lives off a small pension and does not even take a salary from the zoo.
We believe in following your dreams, but there are many ways to work with snakes/reptiles, and venom is only a small part of what is out there. We wish you luck, and if you have other questions you can contact us directly.
One last thing- please realize self-innoculation is voodoo science and please, please do not consider doing it. The risk far outweighs the benefits. If you want to read more there's a thread on venomousreptiles.org in the ask the experts section.
Good luck,
Kristen Wiley
KY Reptile Zoo

The mojave has been one of my favorite species to study.
and one of the first I innoculated to survive.
you stated.-

"One last thing- please realize self-innoculation is voodoo science and please, please do not consider doing it. The risk far outweighs the benefits. If you want to read more there's a thread on venomousreptiles.org in the ask the experts section."

Voodoo science? Are you not going for your PHD?
It has been proven.
It does not work as good for all species and there is a chance of bad reactions but far from voodoo.
Currently I innoculate bi-weekly with no bad reactions at all.
The facts are I still have all my fingers and never have had to even go to the hospital 1 time for antivenom.
where as your director has been sent into cardiac arrest several times and has lost fingers .
Those are the facts.
buy the book when it comes out.
personaly my opinion is that cro-fab is weak and over priced.
good day
bud

I agree with most of Ms. Wiley's points except for one - self inoculation.

Medical science laid down the basic principles of exposure and antibody response quite some decades ago. In fact we rely on these well proven scientific principles to produce antivenom and many of our medically important vaccines. This is hardly voodoo science.

Homo sapiens is an animal like any other, medically speaking. It is irrational to believe that the exposure/antibody response principle does not work on us in the same way it works on monkeys and pigs and sheep and horses. In fact medical science already knows perfectly well that it does, and you can find many examples in modern medicine where the principle is being actively applied.

I agree that the way that self-inoculations are sometimes actually performed resembles voodoo science, with only crude measuring and monitoring. But the basic principles are sound. There are horses and sheep sitting around in government laboratories with a significant immune response to snake venom; we tap their blood to borrow some of their antibodies when we are bitten. There are also some humans in pretty much the same boat. Their persistent self inoculations have raised very significant antibodies in their own blood, and a quantity of snake venom injected into their bodies that would be of very serious consequence to a non inoculated human has little effect.

While I have seen the effects of self inoculation with my own eyes and been quite impressed, I agree that it is a potentially risky enterprise and a difficult one to do properly. I do not encourage hobbyists to attempt this sort of thing at home without proper medical supervision and the necessary equipment to weigh and measure snake venom accurately in its dried form. I do think that it is a viable option for the very serious full time hands-on worker (venom milker, zookeeper, vet) who has proper medical supervision.

That's a bold statement u make there. So, Haast's work is voodoo science? Can u please respond to that? Can u please tell me how av is made, just briefly? Can u describe the risk w/ SI, as opposed too someone not practicing SI? Can u talk about the immune system w/ regards to the alpha, beta, and cleft neuro's that come into play w/ SI? The risk might be what's it doing to my organs? That's why I work w/a doc. Brief overview w/ me per my doc dated 9/6/02. Na> 144, K>4.4, Creatinine>1.0, Ca>8.8, GPT/ALT>28, CO2>29, ALK Phosphatas> 66, A/G ratio> 1.2, and the list goes on(all per units, MMOL/L). My new work will include titer levels w/ different protein injections, and hopefully a new cool protocol w/ ELISA work. Stuff I will do at the university w/ a PhD immunologist. This venom weighs all over the board> 2-3mg's for mamba a unit, and up to 4 for cobras, more future research. I read extensively, and couple that w/ injections for mega research. So, what's my point? Be careful what u say. One more thing, Budman is the king w/ SI, and has taught me a great deal. But, he'll never touch me on COBRAS. Be safe, and study young Kristen

Hi Tim,
I think we really are missing the main point about why SI is a bad idea. TT mentions in her post how we use immunization to create antivenom by using horses, sheep, etc. Of course she's right, that is how a/v is made. (Yes, Tim, I know how the process works.) However, the problem is not that we can't produce our own antibodies for venom. Of course we can, just like we do for colds, flus, etc. The problem is the antibodies are not at a high enough concentration in your system to respond as quickly as would be necessary if you were to sustain a severe bite. Even if you innoculate daily, (which Haast did at one time and may still do) you are likely to need to be on a respirator and need a/v (which he has). Perhaps a couple of hours after the bite you would have high concentrations of antibodies in your system, but if you are talking mamba or some cobras you could be dead by then. The other problem is that you are basing your 'units' on the LD50 listed for venoms. Are you aware that LD50's are the results of tests on mice, not humans? (Even if you are, I don't see you telling the others on the forum this.) Mice are not going to respond in the same way that humans are, and even if you adjust your dosage to the weight of a human vs. a mouse you are not considering the biological differences between the two. Sure it's info we can use to study venoms, but it's not the most useful info by any stretch of the imagination.
Tim, we question your immunity because we know you used a zoo's a/v for one of your bites. Did you replace it? Sure, you may not need a/v for all bites, but no one does. Because we have no way to know how much venom was injected (unless you are in Australia) then you can't know if the snake injected enough to kill you to begin with. When you give yourself an injection, you give it SC, right? And in the arm or leg, right? So try doing it IV or IP, and then see what happens, or try it in a finger or toe. Per your doctor's report, let's see that published in a peer-reviewed journal and not on the internet, and then I will give it some credit. If you prove me wrong, fine. But, Minton, Gold, Straight, Russell, and others have published papers and discredited SI long ago, and say that the risks outweigh the benefits. Even if you are right and they are all wrong, the FDA could never approve a drug made from a human product when others are available and they work.
TT, you mentioned that my boss has used a respirator and lost fingers. True, though the most obvious missing finger was due to a weight lifting accident and has nothing to do with animals at all. He actually kept the finger in a jar to prove it. He is missing the tip of one finger and has two others that are damaged from site necrosis. You have to realize that even someone who has achieved 'complete' immunity would still suffer site damage, as this is caused by the digestive enzymes in the venom and not by the toxins that cause systemic problems. Bacterial damage can also be a problem as you loose blood supply to that area and your WBC's/antibodies can't get there anyway.
Also, he has never spent more than 24 hours in the hospital after a bite, and went right back to work afterwords. Good medical care works.

A last note to BGF: we agree with what you said, experience with the animals definately helps. We were discussing the situation of a venom lab as we have, not a researcher in the field.

Best to all,
Kristen
(I'm currently finishing my master's- what about you Tim and Bud? I do not think that a degree means you know everything, but at least it shows you are willing to work to know all that you can, and not taking a short cut.)

"Minton, Gold, Straight, Russell, and others have published papers and discredited SI long ago, and say that the risks outweigh the benefits."

There are significant risks, but some people value the benefits highly enough to accept them - and they appear to have won their gamble, suffering no ill effects and gaining a useful degree of resistance. Medical supervision and close monitoring helps mitigate that risk but does not eliminate it.

"TT, you mentioned that my boss has used a respirator and lost fingers."

That was not me. I am not familiar enough with that case history to discuss it. I think you are confusing me with another of the posters to this thread.

The bottom line is that I have personally witnessed the protective effects of self-immunization to snake venom on multiple occasions. I have seen significant amounts of freshly milked snake venom taken as an intramuscular injection to the forearm with no effect other than mild and temporary swelling and increased blood flow to the site. There was no chance of trickery or error here - the snake put venom in the cup, the venom was sucked up into a syringe, the contents of the syringe went into the arm. While the absolute concentration of the venom was not measured by dry weight and water percentages can vary somewhat, the wet venom was certainly measurable.

I agree that bites are no indication of immunity because the amount of venom a snake may inject in a given bite may actually be zero. But the method I witnessed as described above leaves little room for doubt. Self immunization is effective. In the cases I am personally familiar with, it also appears to leave the subject remarkably fit and healthy in all respects.

Mr. Haast is in his mid-90's and he still vaults the 6' gate to his outdoor snake pit rather than bother walking around to the door. The other self-immunizers I have met in person are also notably strong and fit, suffering very few illnesses or physical complaints. I think it would not be appropriate to say that SI was the cause, but it certainly does not appear to be a detriment to these subjects' overall excellent health.

I don't think all of the answers are in on this subject. More research with better modern tools is definitely indicated. I think that "voodoo science" is a label much more accurately applied to people who deliberately close their eyes to the evidence in front of them and encourage others to do the same because it's not what the establishment would like people to believe.

Setting up a straw man and knocking it down is not a valid argument. No one is claiming that raising a small amount of antibody by injecting small quantities of snake venom will make you 100% immune to every possible snake bite. Obviously if more venom is injected into you at one time than your antibodies can handle, the quantity of venom above what your established resistance can handle will affect you. You may need a respirator or antivenom or both. But some resistance is better than none, and it is possible to build up sufficient resistance that the entire average output of a snake into a venom cup has minimal visible effect.

Note that I said visible effect. I don't know what was going on in the subject's internal organs (particularly his renal system) when I witnessed him taking on this amount of snake venom. There may well be long term detrimental effects. I do not know. Certainly he did report increased thirst and liquid consumption. That is why I strongly suggest that medical monitoring including regular blood chemistry panels should be an integral part of any couse of self immunization.

I think it is very foolish to argue that self immunization is completely beneficial and safe, and equally foolish to argue that it doesn't work and always has bad results. There simply are no definitive answers right now, older research notwithstanding. More research with better modern medical tools is definitely indicated.

Dear Kristen

Digging back through many mental sediment layers to Immunology & Serology, the protective titre formation goes something like this:

IgM is the first antibody to be produced upon exposure, usually within the first few days of innoculation. Shortly after this the IgM levels go down and IgG levels rise. IgG becomes the main antibody used. After acute exposure is no longer happening, the levels drop way down to detectable but not high enough to afford protection. This low level amount is trickling out of specialised cells called B-Plasma cells. The amount that is trickling out gives an indication of how many B-plasma cells are around. This is what they measure for example when checking whether or not you need a hepatitis B booster shot.

Upon exposure again, the B-plasma cells start cranking out IgG again in massive amounts. However, this takes 3-4 days to really get up to speed. This is why certain bacteria can't be usefully immunised against. We can produce antibodies no worries but the pathogenic course is too rapid and we'd be dead inside the 3-4 day period.

This same time lag works for snakes. However, a full level titre can be maintained by small boosters every 21 days. Thus someone wo is self immunising can reach protective levels immunity.

Therefore, weekly or multiple shots per week of massive amounts of venom simply isn't needed. In fact, massive venom loads can lead to other problems.

On of the major complications is with the prothrombin activating venoms. The kinetics of the prothrombin activators is such that they can start causing coagulopathy before the antibody binds. In other words, they act faster than the antibody so they've already done a bit before they are shut down. Part of this 'doing a bit' is the formation of microthrombi (very very small blood clots). While these aren't enough to block up the brain, they can stuff up the very very small tubules in the kidneys.

This is in fact how people die from Pseudonaja textilis envenomations. Once the kidneys are stuffed enough, hello renal failure. Renal failure is the first domino in a horrible cascade called multiple organ failure. It doesn't take long to go from blocked up tubules to kidney failure to multiple organ failure to death. Indeed, deaths in brown snakes are best described as 'sudden and uneventful'. Uneventful except for to the person dieing!

Further to that, while some people like Haast have enjoyed extraordinarily good health and others immunising report not getting colds, etc. anymore, the constant stress on the immune system can't be good. Not when horses used in antivenom production can have shorter lifespans than non-antivenom production horsese.

This is of course all different than desensitisation therapy, similar to what people who are allergic to bees or ants go throuugh. This is using very very very tiny amounts (1/10000 of a lethal dose for example) to get the body to start making IgG. The reason for this is that allergies are mediated by IgE. IgG production suppresses IgE production against the same molecule. Most venom researchers become allergic to the powdered venom. This isn't a drama unless they are also working with the snakes. Then the likelihood of anaphylactic shock is high. Due to lab generated allergies, I've had anaphylaxis to species the first time bitten by them. Obviously I"m a prime candidate to desensitation therapy as no doubt is Jim.

All the best
B
Venom & Toxin Database

How do u feel about my thought process on this? Early mamba injections that were diluted would kick are butts to the point of 8 hours down once a week, plus type 1 shock. This lasted for 6 weeks every week, and as soon as I converted to pure mamba venom at 1 bar, or about 2-migs, I never had a problem. Just some swelling. I willing to bet my strong gamma production blocked the bidding of the E. It's totally logical with regards to type 1 disappearance. Now, a full adult 2 fang bite which is about 4-5 bars doesn't even phase me. Let's draw a basic logical conclusion w/ regards to what happened to us. The predominate ab(gamma) is super powerful is us, and other things are falling into place. Good things. Stressing out the immune system is a concern of mine, that will be my focus. Just cause Haast is made of steel, doesn't mean I will in 5 years. I tell u what though, I can't get sick to beat the band, and no more allergies. Tanner work is legendary, did u read the paper w/ Wiener from 58. Ya got me fired up brother, lets do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight. Where did that come from?

God I love this forum!!!!
This discussion kicks A$$.

Hi Kristen

> However, bites are due to carelessness and making mistakes.

Many but not all bites are due to this. Remember, we are working with inherently dangerous animals that are actively trying to defend themselves. Everytime Michael Schumacher wrecks a car, its not necessearily his fault.

Most of my bites have come from working with new species. As I'm sure you appreciate, each species has its own characteristic behaviour. You certainly can't predict how its going to react until your familiar with it. Thus, there's the lag time of learning. If you have the luxury to maintain it in captivity beforehand, this certainly helps. However, if you are milking it the first time you encounter it, then obviously things can get very 'interesting'. This is of course why people such as the German for example can go a long time without getting bit. They are working with the same species (in that case, all of one species) day in day out. Obviously this helps considerably. However, you took handed him a grab bag of Australian elapids and said 'start milking', the odds may be a bit different.

All the best
BGF
Venom & Toxin Database

I can understand and respect what you're doing over there at Great Lakes, but it really doesn't help advance the cause of getting people to take SI seriously when you refuse to talk about it seriously. In fact it kind of does the opposite. It would contribute a lot to the discussion if you shared some of the facts about what you are doing in a calm and rational way. I know you have some valuable data that is worth serious consideration. I'd like to see other people take it seriously too, but whether they do or not depends on the way you choose to present it.

Thanks,

TT

I refuse to be rational w/ KRZ, based on a personnel e-mail to me from the director. That's all I will say. If the tone of my post is not to your liking, don't read it. I don't read your venomoid posts. Have a good day

Jim has no degree and Krz is his girlfriend half his age.
so she is highly defensive cause of this.
when she is a PHD will she keep the old man?
or dump him for a student half her age?
Its already their MO.
so they cannot be delt with rationaly.
deuce send me the letter.

I'm not trying to be Miss Manners and tell you who you have to be nice to. I was just personally hoping to hear you share more important data about SI on the forum. I think that stuff needs to be out there. A lot of people would benefit from hearing the truth about it.

I would be sorry to see you stop talking about it because one person on the forum annoyed you. I know you can present a rational, well written case for SI with a lot of good data, and I'm really looking forward to seeing something like that.

Sorry bout that T. I'll work on my presentation in a better manner. At this point I would like to leave this die, and end w/ this. When u say u can't do something, movement will never be made. Keeping a open mind, and really pushing the limits gets things done. Even if your wrong, that's science in my mind. To sit back and be so darn sure SI can't work, is foolish. To say it'll never be a accepted vaccine, is foolish. KRZ knows everything? I know very little in the grand scheme, but keeping an open mind allows me to advance in a mega way. I'm not afraid to be wrong, I'm afraid as he!! not to try. I've made big mistakes, and told the truth. At least I confront these issues here, I don't make some else do it for me. I'm now going to inject some mamba venom, a drink a cup of coffee.

Enjoy your mamba venom and your coffee, and don't get the two of them accidentally mixed up. The dried powdered stuff does look kind of like non dairy creamer so watch out.

I am really looking forward to seeing some of your writeups!

TT

Welcome to kingsnake.com, where irrelevant personal attacks seem to be pretty much par for the course. I've had people phone my house with threats, post my ex-boyfriend's names on the forum (though I can't imagine why), tell slanderous lies about me, etc, all because they didn't agree with what I posted.

I move over to the private scientific and veterinary forums when I want to have a serious discussion with people who can conduct themselves in a professional adult manner. This place is pretty much just for laughs, though occasionally some good stuff pops up.

That doesn't make it okay for people to attack your personal life when they have a scientific disagreement with you. But on this forum, it seems to be the norm. I'm disappointed but not really surprised to see what should have been an informative and interesting debate degenerate into irrelevant comments about other people's sex lives.

There are some solid arguments in favor of a more thorough medical and scientific investigation of SI. They aren't being presented very well by the proponents of the practice however.

TT