Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am just wondering if UV lighting is necessary in tortoises. I have been using UV bulbs for my Russian tortoise for 2 years when she's inside for the cooler times of the year, but after I started becoming interested in monitors, I have found that some herps don't need it if they are given proper diet, etc., Many monitor breeders don't use any UV lighting at all. I've also discovered that most/many UV light bulbs are very crappy i.e. penetrating only 6 inches, etc. I understand that monitors and tortoises are quite different, so please don't lecture me about somehting like that.. I'm not an idiot. So what do you guys think about this topic?

Hi i'm pretty sure that i have a good idea of lighting in tortoises. i've read many many tortoise books, checking them out 2 or 3 at a time from every libery in town. there seems to be a general feeling in the books that tortoises require lighting to grow properly. that said they also seem to agree that they do not require much lighting during winter, exceptions to this might be tortoises that don't hibernate. so from what i gather if your tortoises would naturally hibernate, but you chose to keep them indoors for the winter they don't need very much lighting. I would still recomend an hour a day of florescent lighting and of course the standard basking bulb to keep your tortoises warm.
hope that helps.
P.S. the low lighting in the winter is related to the low growth rate of tortoises in the winter i believe

Hi,

I have been breeding and raising tortoises for over 50 years and I can tell you that they very definitely DO require large amounts of light, both UVA and UVB, to grow properly. Their shells are made up of bone and the bone is produced by the animnal processing calcium and phosphorus with vitamin D3 and ultraviolet light. Tortoises raised without adequate lighting PLUS calcium and phosphorus (in the proper ratio) and Vitamin D will have aberrant shell growth, and in severe cases, may even get metabolic bone disease.

Personally, I recommend using two different fluorescent bulbs in a dual bulb fixture to get the best light spectrum and overall growth. I use one Verilux tube and one ESU Reptile Daylight 7% UVB bulb.

Some reptiles do not require large amounts of UV light as you mentioned, but tortoises are not one of those types because of the large amounts of bone which they must produce to grow (much more than any other reptile except turtles, of course). Hope this helps.

I'd guess that a monitor that ingests whole prey, like rats, is getting a great deal of vitamin D from the liver of its prey. This would allow them to thrive without exposure to UV.

An herbivorous tortoise, on the other hand, needs exposure to UV rays in order to initiate the physiological process that produces vitamin D. Or it must consume vitamin D as a supplement or part of the canned food it eats.

From my personal experience in keeping russians, I'd say that the animals are more active under bright, natural light and have better appetites. Sunlight works best, but if you can at least setup some "full spectrum" fluorescents to brighten up the enclosure with daylight quality light, it'll help. The full spectrum bulbs don't produce much if any UV, but the quality of the light seems to stimulate the animal. I've used GE Sunshine fluorescent bulbs, but I can't find them around here any more. You should still use a regular incandescent bulb to create a warm basking spot.

This setup works well for my russians because they are outdoors for about 6 months, and under the artifical lights about 2-3 months, and then in hibernation for about 3 months. If I kept them indoors full-time I'd probably invest in one of the mercury vapor type of bulbs.

When my russians are indoors I sprinkle calcium/d3 powder on their food once or twice a week.

Don't forget that it helps to have the total environment in optimal shape: Heat, light, and humidity.

Thanks everybody for the help. It is as I expected. Everyone seemed a little concerned abotu heat and other husbandry aspects as well, I have the setup properly with temp, good borrowable substrate, and humidity.. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't throwing money down the tube by purchasing UV bulbs (like I was with my monitor for a while). The only reason I even keep her indoors is that it is not cold enough here in the winter to hibernate, and the winters are wet... and I do believe cool temps humid/wet environment = shell rot. But thanks again for the help.

Joe

My opinion is how could it hurt. If you are trying to establish a natural environment no matter what the animal is they are always exposed to sunlight. Whether they are nocturnal or not. Sunlight has UVB rays, these rays don't just strike the area that the light is striking, it bounces in many directions and gets into caves and under trees etc. Obviously b/c how would low lying plants survive in the bottom of a dense rainforest if these rays did not bounce.
I have had the same debate with frogs, b/c many people do NOT use them for frogs b/c they are nocturnal or what ever other peoples reasons are for this. BUt again I feel how could it hurt. It can only help. MY vet, who is a well resepected reptile/exotic vet, HIGHLY recommends uvb lights for all reptiles and amphibians and thinks that they are vital in proper care and healht of them. Also having a leopard gecko that devloped SEVERE MBD from the lack of uvb that shows me even more how important this is. And many people do not recommend them for leos, granted this is a one time occurance but again HOW COULD IT HURT? besides it is not like they are THAT expensive!

Just my .02

Christina
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0.0.1 Hatchling Indian Star Tortoise (Sitara)
1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.1 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.3 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Albino Pacman Frog
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.3 mice
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

30 dollars every 6 months for about 70 years.. or however long a Russian can live is almost $4500 - I don;t know about you, but I would like to spend that money on something else. I was just making sure it was encessary. Are you sure that lep. gec. didn't receive the defficeny from a lack of something in its diet? My sister has 2 breeding pairs that shes had for years with no UVB whatsoever...

Well when you get a tortoise that is a life long commitement. If you do not feel that spending the money is in your budget then maybe a tortoise is not for you. And besides I don't know where you get your supplies from BUT i have NEVER spent more then $20 on a bulb and even that was alot.
I was not trying to be nasty, my opinion is that... ALL reptiles and amphiabians need it.

Christina
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0.0.1 Hatchling Indian Star Tortoise (Sitara)
1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.1 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.3 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Albino Pacman Frog
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.3 mice
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

I understand this, and it's not that I can't afford buying the bulbs... I just recently found that they are not necessary for some herps, and I thought "That would be great if I didn't need to buy them for the tortoise". Thats all. Also the bulbs I buy are 36", because I also use them for ambient cage lighting... that may be why theyre more expensive than the ones you buy.

Is UV lighting necessary in tortoise husbandry... nope.
Is it beneficial... yup.
In both cases... it depends... as usual.
Personally, I like the mercury vapor lamps for UV for my animals.
I've raised tortoises for years without UV with no adverse effects. Again, it depends on what I'm trying to do. I've found that the more important components in hatchlings is heat, hydration and a varied diet with UV being not that important in the first few years. As they grow it seems to become more important.
I did run into a problem with my monitors, though. They seemed developed neurological problems which, when exposed to sunshine, did reverse.
I'm a firm believer in that no one component of animal husbandry is responsible for any one defeciency. All the components form a dynamic balance which can compensate for deficiencies in one another.
That's my take on the deal.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Did you have UVA? I know that's important to psychological wellbeing. I think there is not UVA if you use ceramic heat emmiters or somehting... but don't quote me on that.

I think what EJ was talking about with the mercury vapor bulbs is a little different then ceramic heat emmitters. I am not too familiary with MVB b/c I do not use them I just know there is a difference.

Christina
-----
0.0.1 Hatchling Indian Star Tortoise (Sitara)
1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.1 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.3 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Albino Pacman Frog
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.3 mice
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

Hi Ed,

I strongly believe that your success in raising tortoises "without UV" is due only to the fact that you live in southern CA where the tortoises are able to receive their UV from natural sunlight from being kept outdoors much of the time. Therefore, it would be more correctly stated that your animals have been raised "without ARTIFICIAL UV light". If one's tortoises are being maintained in the northeast or another area of the country where they must be kept exclusively indoors for roughly 75% of the year, the result is that artificial UV light becomes more and more of a necessity for proper shell growth as the percentage of time spent indoors by the tortoise increases. This factor must be considered by each individual owner depending upon how much unfiltered natural sunlight is available to his/her animal(s).

Hi Bill, I'm affraid that is not a correct assumption. I've been playing with the idea of focusing on the heat and hydration on some animals. The UVB is totally omitted. The hatchlings are raised on a fine sand which is moistened on the front half of the shoe box and dry on the back half. The shoe boxes are kept on a 'snake rack' with a heat tape under the rear portion of the box. There is zero UVB or at least whatever that can penetrate the reptile room. These particular animals are soaked every other day. The only supplement they get is calcium carbonate and they are not removed from the rack except for soaking, which is indoors.
Here is the results so far.
This is a 2 year old Egyptian which should be bigger but it lost a year due to another mistake but I got it through that so far.

Here is a 5 - 6 year old Star tortoise. It was raised 3 years in a shoe box then moved to a larger enclosure. Still no UVB but it is near a window.

Finally, my pride and joy. The only Spider I've been able to hatch out. She is about 3 years old and has only recently been moved to under a Mercury vapor lamp.

So as I said it UVB might be beneficial but it is obviously not a necessity.
This does not mean that I'm advocating doing away with the UVB but I am saying that it can be worked around. I'm also saying that I do recommend it's use if the keeper is willing and able.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

gibble gabble

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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

EJ,
Do you have any pics of your setup? Those guys all look great. I've had very good results as well but I do use a UV heat light from big apple. I think you've seen some of my guys.
Chad

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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care