Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like to start a discussion about sinaloan milksnake morphs.
I saw on a website hypoerythrystic ones, and from time to time we all see striped, abberant and paternless forms.
This time, I would like to show possible hypomelanistic animal. It is difficult to show his true colors - I made several pics and the colors don't do justice even on my monitor screen.
The blacks are washed away, like on hypo animals. On top, the color is darker, on the ventral surface it is much lighter, I would say light brownish-gray.

It was not crossed with any of other species - this baby (male) just poped out in normal clutch. I don't know his genetic background - I want to check in future.

Let me know what do you think about this.
Jeff Schofield wrote his interesting thougs in this topic:
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=447867,456160

I would like to hear some more opinions about this from other people also.

Best regards
Lukasz

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snakes.pl

I would say that is clear and dry a hypo siniloan.And it in no way looks like a hybrid.
Good job and track down as much data as possible on that line.

shannon

If it was a hypo, i think it would have a light brown-lavender head. Like baby hypo hondos.
Jeff

Hi!

The head looks black on this shot - that's right. In fact - it is the same color as the rings almost - little darker, but visible brownish-gray.
I will try to make some other pics soon - in more natural light, I think it will show more of the colors. And I will try to photograph the head from different perspective - it should show more.

As I wrote - I don't state that this is a hypo. For me, it looks like most of other species hypo I saw. I also do not know if it is genetic - this has to be testbreed. The snake is from last years clutch. I will have to testbreed him to check it.

Thanks for your input.

I was thinking about how it is possible that we have so many morphs of some species, and from other species - even when bred in similar numbers all over the world - we don't have almost any morphs.

Best regards
Lukasz
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snakes.pl

Hi,
I feel the same way, about some snakes having so many moprhs, and some not many at all. Like with all the grey-band breeders. there is alot of wc alterna in collections and I'm surprised there hasnt been an amel. yet. But I look forward to seeing more pics of this sinaloan. As I said in the kingsnake forum to the post there, its hard to get pics of hypos. Alot of the times the hypos in pics come out darker than they are. Good lcuka gain,
jeff teel

Just photograph it next to a normal, then the hypo should be visible............

Kerby...

jeff, check out the two triads just above and to each side of the head in the picture...there's a definite suggestion of brown there, not glossy black. You're right, the head doesn't show the characteristic lighter color of a hypo, but that could be the angle--the angle of view of the two triads i mention is pretty direct and ought to be reasonably accurate. I can't assess the possibility of hybridization with it (though there's not a lot that could be used as a resource for such a project) but I would consider it a worthy nominee for the possibility of hypo sinaloan.

Lukasz, i may have overlooked details elsewhere, but have you tracked down parents and sibs of that animal? how old is it? gender?

most of all, a "way to go" would seem to be in order.

peace
terry

Hi!

Thanks for your comment as well.
It will take a lot of tim and patience to make sure about this snake.
This is a male, he is from last years clutch - about 10 months old.
I am trying to track the parents and siblings, but it is quite difficult and I think it will take some more time.
At this moment I know for sure, that this was only one such snake from the clutch, and the parents didn't produce any such snakes before. I don't know yet, if the parents were bred eachother before or bred with other snakes - I am trying to check it all.
Most breeders here don't keep any records - it is even difficult now to tell which parents produced that snake. I suspect that the babies were mixed and the breeder is not sure anymore.

I will make some better pictures soon - to show his head, and more colors. I will also make comparisation pictures - but later on, because that snake is on quarantine now.

Best regards
Lukasz
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snakes.pl

Hi!

I just tried to make head closeups of the snake.
They should show some more - off course these pictures may not show anything as well.
As I wrote - I will try to make some more pics in more natural light. This is evening here, and I could only make pics using camera built in flash.

I don't state that I have "the one and only hypo sinaloan". I just have a snake that doesn't look like any of the sinaloans I saw before.
I expected that hypo should be much lighter in color - this is rather dark, brownish-gray.
I would like to get as many opinions as possible - just to learn more about this beautifull creatures.
If you will see anything more from this two closeups - that will be great.

Thanks and best regards
Lukasz


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snakes.pl

Pueblans there. It may very well be hypo, good luck with it. Unless you can track donw some siblings to it-(for test breeding) your gonna wait a while to see if its genetic or not, i hope so. Have fun with that and keep some pics comming from it as it grows.
jeff teel

I was thinking of making some comparisation pics with other sinaloan, but as this snake came to me yesterday, it is on quarantine and I don't want to contact it with other snakes.

Unfortunatelly I wasn't able to buy any of his siblings. This will teaches me more patience for sure
When the guy from who I bought the snake told me that he has hypo sinaloan for me - I was very sceptical. When I saw the snake the first time, late at night - I was dissapointed. It looked pretty normal for me. But in the morning, in natural light - wow, that was different
I still don't know what is it - and it will take a lot of time to check it. But I like that animal - and even if it will not be a hypo, I will still like him as much as I do now.

Thanks for all opinions - does anybody has any idea, why we don't see any pueblan or sinaloan morphs?
I don't know how it is in USA - but here, there are much more sinaloans or pueblans than hondos, so it would be natural to think that we should have much more morphs of these snakes.

I wonder - if a baby of one morph will pop out from normal looking parents, does it makes us sure that the parents are hets for this morphs? I would like to know some of your opinions on this.

Best regards
Lukasz
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snakes.pl

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Now that's a hypo! NP

>>I wonder - if a baby of one morph will pop out from normal looking parents, does it makes us sure that the parents are hets for this morphs? I would like to know some of your opinions on this.

yes, i think that's the logical conclusion.

it still looks hypo-esque to me.

and re: your expectations that it would be lighter, there could be any number of different hypo morphs for a given species...we're exploring right now the possibility there may be a new, second--and lighter--hypo honduran, for example, and doing some of the same breeding tests with what might be two different hypo morphs of pyros. so a hypo of a diff subspecies like the sinaloan could reasonably be lighter--or darker--than traditional hypo hondos, for example. it'll look like whatever the particular gene mutation on that subspecies produces as a result of its alteration of melanin.

another example is the "anerythristic" honduran and pyro: NEITHER is actually, literally an "an"erythristic (no erythrins) because both have obvious remnant pink on them...they're really "hypo"erythristic, with the erythrins reduced, not eliminated. but the two diff species are dramatically diff in appearance, with the degree of reduction much greater on the hondo than on the pyro.

terry

and some real clean beauties from Cosala, but none had that brownish color like the one in your pic has. It looks to me like you have yourself a hypo. Nice!
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Mark

Hi again

To be honest - I didn't know that showing the colors can be so difficult I used to photograph animals for some time and this is the first time that I cannot really get the picture.

For this moment, you have to believe me on my word. It may not be a hypo - I know about this, but for 100% sure he is brownish-grayish. I wish I could show him in reality - off course it is not possible.
I will continue trying to make better picture.

Off course, all would expect a hypo with colors washed away like hondurans extreme hypos, or the campbeli hypo shown by Shannon. I would expect him looking like this too. But he is not so light. He has black eyes, and brownish color instead of black.
The only way to be sure about it is to testbreed. In other words - the time will tell.
Maybe the first hypos of these species were not so washed away and the colors are more visible with every next generation.

Enclosed is another try - again not doing him justice, but in my opinion (and on my monitor) very close.
Soon I will make some comparisation pics with other sinaloan and I will post them here on the forum.

Best regards for all
Lukasz

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snakes.pl

This is one more try.

Best regards

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snakes.pl

Hi!

The babies wanted to eat eachother - but I managed to make couple pics
I will try more neutral background and light next time - I think this will show it better.
But I think you can get an idea from this two shots.

Any comments welcome - I would like to get as many opinions as possible. Still making research.

Best regards
Lukasz

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snakes.pl

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on this one. Looks hypo!! Certainly something special with that little guy. It will be interesting to see how it turns out after a year or so of growth, overall body coloration, color of the bands, etc..
Definatly take Shannon's advice on tracking down the line and obtaining siblings if you can.
Good luck with it and thanks for sharing.
Nathan

http://www.kingsnake.com/critter/

I'd wager:

1) it IS a hypo
2) it will prove to be a recessive trait
3) you'll end up very happy it's a male!

You want to start building a very nice harem of females for him now...try to accumulate the best half dozen, at least, females you can...animals that if possible are at least a year older than him. Be selective, don't buy people's older "proven breeders" that might in fact be their failures, unless you really trust the seller; be sure not to buy anything that might have any blood in it other than sinaloan, hold out for sinaloan (not nelsoni) characteristic low triad counts and wide red, it should be a great project for you.

peace
terry

.

Hi!

Thanks for your comments.
Off course I will keep this line clean.
At this moment I have chosen 1 female for the male - the best female I have. I will be looking for few more females - only pure and the most beautifull ones.
I am not desperate to breed him ASAP with any female avaliable - I prefer to take the longer way and focus on purity and quality. This is more exciting for me

I will call that guy hypo sinaloan from now on - I decided that he is hypo. I only don't know yet, if it is genetic. This will need a lot of patience to prove it - but this makes it really exciting.

I will keep you all informed on any news regarding this snake/project. Thanks again for your input.

Best regards
Lukasz
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