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Is there a Super Motley? Is the Purple Pattern-Less a Super Motley? I don’t think these questions can be answered at this time. I do believe that the Purple Pattern-Less is reproducible, but it may be a recessive gene and not a Super Motley. This question will not be answered until a Purple Pattern less is bred to a normal.

Hi everyone, My name is Joe Pierce and I have been breeding Colubrids for many years and I use to have a lot of boas and pythons many years ago when the Albino Burmese were big. All of these great new morph in the boas, has got me back into boas and I am realizing that I have a lot of catch up learning to do. These co-dominant or semi-dominant genes in the boas are fascinating.

I have seen statements like, “Now that the Super Motley is proven.” or “it is not proven that the Purple Patten less is a Super Motley but I believe it is“, and suddenly the price of the Motleys has gone way up. I have some of the most expensive colubrids that exist, so I am a firm believer in getting what your animals are worth, especially new morphs.

It seems like the price increase is base upon an unproven fact that the Purple Pattern less is a Super Motley, when in fact if it is recessive, you could breed two Motleys together and not get a Purple Pattern less at all. I believe the Motleys are a fantastic new morph and the existence of a Purple Pattern less in the Motley group is a dream come true and perhaps just the Purple Pattern less in itself is worth the extra money now being ask for the Motleys. Nobody is twisting anybody arms to buy them and who ever buys them are going to be very rewarded in the long run whether or not the Purple pattern less is a Super Motley or recessive trait.

...I'm willing to bet the purple patternless IS the Super motley and it's not going to be recessive, but when bred to a normal, I bet the purple patternless will produce all motleys. This is similar to what you see in pastel ball pythons. Just because Jeremy had purple patternless boas pop out from a motley X normal breeding doesn't mean there's any less of a chance of the purple patternless being the super motley. Like Jeremy said, these type of breedings where a super is produced from breeding co-dom to a normal have happened before. Its not terribly unusual and has happened in humans before.

...none of this has been proven, but after future breedings(probably next year), I'll bet $$ or boas that again, the purple patternless is the super.

LOL, LOL

I'll bet ALL of Shanes Boas that if you breed the Purple Patternless from a Motley to Motley breeding that the babies will all come out Motley. LOL. Just kidding Shane. I would like to Bet all of your boas from your KILLER Motley breeding, but I know you wouldn't like ME betting your boas. But don't sweat it. Like what you said Above, I'm just as sure as you. Take Care, Jeremy

Even said, I'm not SURE it will happen, but I do think the Purple Patternless from the Motley to normal breeding will produce MOTLEYS. Hopefully we will see this next year.

>Even said, I'm not SURE it will happen, but I do think the Purple Patternless from the Motley to normal breeding will produce MOTLEYS. Hopefully we will see this next year.

I also think that the Purple Patternless from the Motley to normal breeding will produce motleys. But if it also produces normals, then you will have proved that the Purple Patternless is not a homozygous (AKA super) motley. IMHO, Joe's suggestion has some merit. I'm not saying that motley is a recessive mutant. But there is a possibility that motley and a new mutant combine their effects to produce Purple Patternless, the same way that salmon and albino combine to produce sunglow. But only further breeding will tell us for sure. Whatever the outcome, I'm sure it will be interesting.

Paul Hollander

isn't the case with this Motley gene. After MANY breedings, I can come to the conclusion with a Lot more evidence about nothing being recessive in the Motley gene, then I can about the Purple Patternless Being Dominant.

I can see your concerns. More breedings have to be done. But your theory as to the Purple Patternless being some sort of Recessive gene is respectfully wrong. IF this were the case, when I bred My Normal Female Motley sibling to a Motley, I would have gotten a FORM OF the PURPLE PATTERNLESS IF it were Recessive. When two Motley siblings have breed together and NOTHING but Normals come out, that shows me there is NOTHING recessive going on with the Motley. IF THERE WAS something recessive, then the NORMALS of the Motley litters when bred together should have produced something. NOT a bunch of NORMAL babies.

As to the Pricing Hike on the Motleys. To be "POLITCALLY CORRECT" we could say this. SINCE the Motley to Motley breeding WILL produce Purple Patternless, Motleys will be prices accordinly so.

WHEN we breed the Purple Patternless that comes from the Motley to Motley breedings, and if 100 percent Motleys are produced, then we will call them SUPER MOTLEYS. As for Now, I will REFER to them as SUPERS, but keep in mind they could be just a NEW MUTATION?? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT, but OHWELL...

I don't know if you read my post before. Many breeders call NEW mutations that come from Co dom to Co dom Breedings SUPERS LONG before anyone breeds the Super. So, that is why you'll see it continually happen here.

It happened with Jungles, even though NOONE has bred a Super Jungle to a Normal to get ALL Jungles, it happens when we referr to the Arabesque to Arabesque breeding EVEN though we don't know what it will look like. HOWEVER, WE STILL REFFER to it as the SUPER ARABESQUES..

So, technically, we should just referr to these things as Possible Dominants. But, I think people really know better, and know they WILL be dominant, so the lingo will go on. From Now on, I'll reffer to the Purple Patternless as the Possible SUPER MOTLEY Motley, but when I say that, I MEAN POSSIBLE DOMINANT.... Confusing?? YES.. Ohwell.

You brought in two different arguments. ONE, the SUPER MOTLEY, and TWO the Pricing.

I don't know why you brought up the pricing. WE do know that when you breed Motleys to Motleys, you'll get something Special so therefore the PRICE INCREASE REGARDLESS of a NAME.

As for the Purple Patternless (Yes I'll think of a better name sooner or later since people don't like it being called the SUPER MOTLEY), we'll just have to wait and see.

Take Care, Jeremy Stone

Ohhhh, I know you mentioned you were a Colubrid Breeder. Can you explain any genes in the Colubrids that work like the Motley or Arabesque Or Jungle??? I mean Co-doms?? I am not familiar with any. Are there any?? I don't know my Colubrids worth BEANS. I do know that the Motley Corn snake is Recessive. Please mention a few so we can know what Colubrids you have bred that act like this gene that have helped you understand it more. Thanks, and sorry for my ignorance on this Subject.

Hi Jeremy,

I'm pretty sure that the Aztec pattern in cornsnakes is either dominant or co-dominant. I have a ghost Aztec that I have out on a breeding loan that produces Aztecs when bred to normals. As far as I know that is the case with this morph. I haven't heard of any other co-dom or dominant traits in corns, but there could be some in other species. I think Mosaic in Cal kings might fit in there but I'm not sure.

I still don't have a complete grasp on the whole co-dom genetics in general. I was under the impression that circleback in boas was co-dom and thought I had proved it last year when my female produced a bit better than 50/50 circlebacks from being bred by a normal. This past year she produced 0 bred to the same male. I have noticed in circlebacks that there seem to be two different types, one that is truly genetic and one that seems to just pop up occasionally. Sadly, I lost my matriarch circleback this year after she dropped her litter. I did hold back two of her babies from last year, one is a nice circleback that almost looks Arabesque and the other was a nicely colored normallly patterned male. I plan to breed the female to a male circleback I got as a rescue a few years ago when she is ready.

If you could shed any light on co-dom and the circleback gene, it would be very appreciated. I'm in the process of getting a new digi cam and when I do I'll post some new pics of her.

Thanks,
Rick S.

There are not really any colubrids that have been proven to be co-dominant, but some are suspected. The Aztec Corns and Blood Corns are two and seem to be more of what one would expect of a co-dominant gene, a mixing of dominants. The co-dominant label of the Salmons for example has been a little confusing to me. Co-dominant to what? Normal? Usually, a co-dominant gene is something like a red rose and white rose mixed together and you get a pink rose.

They seem to be a semi-dominant gene. It is either a Salmon or normal, and of coarse the Super Salmon is a double homo and dominant. They seem to work like the gene in Paint Horses. It is an all or nothing gene and when the offspring gets the gene pasted on, it is dominant and a Salmon Boa. This seems to be the case with Motleys and other dominant genes within boas. The Jungles seem to be more along the lines of a co-dominant. Jungle to Jungle and you get radical Jungles. Jungle to normal and you get partial Jungles. That is exactly what is happening with the Aztec Corns. Perhaps Motleys are co-dominant to normal, and when you get a homo Motley it is a Purple Pattern less exactly like you suspect.

I guess it doesn’t matter if it is called co-dominant, semi-dominant or dominant, when you breed a Motley to a normal you will get 50% Motleys and that is some sort of dominant gene at work. My point was not to diminish the Motleys in anyway. The results that you have gotten so far that I knew about could be evidence of a recessive gene at work. I did not know that you have bred Motley siblings together and never got anything but normals, but in that case if one of the normals was not a carrier, this would be expected too. I guess it would depend on how many sibling breedings you have done.

In the end, you are most likely right on target and the Purple Patten less Boa is a double Homo Motley or Super Motley. I have heard nothing but great things about you and your boas are top notch and on the cutting edge. You have to be the luckiest man alive to own a “White” Motley. When will we know if it is a Sunglow or Albino, or will you need some to compare? Pricing is of course up to the seller, and when I get some more money together the Motleys het Albino are extremely tempting.

>The co-dominant label of the Salmons for example has been a little confusing to me. Co-dominant to what? Normal? Usually, a co-dominant gene is something like a red rose and white rose mixed together and you get a pink rose.

Right, salmon is codominant to the normal allele. Though calling salmon a dominant mutant might be better because of the variability in the heterozygotes and homozygotes.

I don't know about roses, but the classic example of a codominant (AKA incomplete dominant) mutant gene is in four o'clock flowers. White-flowered four o'clocks mated to red-flowered four o'clocks produce all pink-flowered four o'clocks. White flowers are the mutant homozygotes, red flowers are the normals, and pink are the heterozygotes, with one mutant gene paired with one normal gene.

Paul Hollander

I think either way, something REALLY spectacular has been created...obviously something that hasn't been here before.

As with anything new, people will question the validity of the producers...that's fine...I think it is important to ask questions, otherwise, how will people learn.

As far as the price goes...that's just simple economics...there isn't enough SUPPLY to meet the demand WITHOUT the visibility of the possible super motley. Now that IT's a factor, the demand HAS to go up.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing all of the possibilities unfold as these guys continue their breeding trials.

This is a VERY exciting time to be a BOA hobbyist!

Sincerely, Chris
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

I agree that to date one cannot say with 100% certainty that the purple patternless is a Super Motley and not some other genetic variation on the Motley theme. However the reproducibility of the purple patternless in the Motley warrents the increase in price, which could have been more, as it adds a whole additional aspect to the Motley project. In addition we have seen the reverse Motley this week which adds another dimension to the Motley story. Even if the purple patternless proves not to be a super it is still possible that dominant motleys will be produced which will produce 100% Motleys when bred to a normal. This also would warrent an increase in price for the project.
Bill Kirby

The same guy that sells 100% het for pink pastel hognose, but they don't produce any albinos (defintie hets right LOL)? Just trying to see how much credit you have, before I reply to the real topic!

BOTTOM LINE- Motleys ,Super Motleys, Purple Patternless = The greatest boa morph in existance today. With more suprises on the way!!!

They are awesome, no doubt about that! How about a Hypo Purple Pattern less. They may be a “Lavender Boa”. I guess not since they seem to be red, based upon the one that Jeremy got, or was that a Albino Purple Pattern less. Now that is a cool snake, a solid red boa! I can’t wait to see one of those be produced!

I agree that the potential of the Motleys and Purple Pattern less are almost unlimited. Boy Purple Pattern less is long to type, maybe we could just shorten it to Purple boa, along the lines of a Green Burmese. They were a Green pattern less Burmese for a long time. I guess that will be up to the creator, Jeremy.