Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ever wonder why the same venomoid snakes go up for sale over and over?

Becuase they are junk.
quote of the day 'venomoid black mamba EATING MACHINE' ha ha

The worst part about them is tossing in a dead rat and then tossing it in the garbage can cause it did not eat.
Gets costly to say the least.

Too bad they cannot be banned due to the fact k,snake gets rich from the ad sales.

here is a idea some one passed on to me

a all venomoid snake show hahahahahaha
thats a sickening thought later i have to puke.

Agreed. I've wondered about the value of a 'non-venomous' venomous reptile as well. When I was into hot snakes back in the early 80s, I never saw anything like this. If people were cutting up their snakes back then, they didn't advertise it.

For venomoid lovers ... if you don't want to be exposed to the possibility of being bitten by a venomous snake, I understand. There are beautiful varieties of kingsnakes and cornsnakes/ratsnakes. Maybe that's more your speed, so look into that. But STOP MUTILATING THESE BEAUTIFUL ANIMALS!

Phil Holbrook
Greensboro, NC

I have done a little research on the venomoid issue and have heard great points made from both sides. I am the kind of person who likes to hear ALL sides before making a conclusion. On one hand, I totally understand why some of you are so adament about disliking 'oids......it takes away from them being natural and turns them more man-made, and it is alot of times done by unprofessional people who just want to make a buck.

On the other hand, I can see how if done the right way by a certified vet that venomoids have their place in this hobby.....I know they have been used as educational tools and owned by those who wish to be able to enjoy the beauty of the venomous species without the potentially deadly consequences.

I hear people say that if you want a non-venomous snake, get a corn snake or something like that......but how many snakes are there that match a cobra in full defensive display? Or are as impressive as a gaboon? While some of their non-venomous counter-parts can be just as impressive or beautiful, it just doesn't hold the same *bang* as saying "I have a cobra." I know that is generally not a good reason to own a snake or any herp, but think about it.......does a corn snake really stand up in any way or fashion to a hooded-out cobra?

I am not one to judge others because of their choices, and I believe that one's choices are theirs to make, as are the repurcussions of those choices. I do not feel venomoids are a "bad" nor are they a "good" thing......they are merely just a different path in the great forest of Herps.

Venomoids basically boil down to this issue: are you willing to cause pain and damage to a snake just for fun? Many responsible snake keepers feel that people who are willing to hurt snakes for fun and profit are in roughly the same ethical category as rattlesnake roundups.

Yes, surgeries can be done by an accredited veterinarian who uses appropriate anesthesia and pain medication. But most of the time they aren't. There are a lot of amateurs in this field performing highly questionable kitchen table procedures with crude instruments and without appropriate drugs. Why? Because it's profitable, because no agency is really interested in enforcing laws regarding the humane treatment of venomous snakes, and because most legitimate veterinarians won't consent to perform such an operation.

Sure, cobras are cool. Gaboon vipers are neat. And if you want, you can have one butchered so that you can keep it without bothering to learn any skills first. But you should understand full well what you are doing - taking a cheap, instant-gratification shortcut that the snake pays for in blood and pain.

Also you should understand that learning how to safely handle venomous snakes is remarkably easy. I'm a feeble little old lady with bad knees and glasses and I do it every day before breakfast as a dull routine chore. So keep in mind that if you need to butcher your snakes before you can handle them, you are admitting that you are even more feeble than a little old lady. That's really pretty sad.

There are a few arguably legitimate reasons for making venomoids, but "cobras are cool" definitely isn't one of them.

... it would probably be the way I get a lot of my animals: because nobody else wanted it or could keep it any more. I have rescued many animals in my life; one of my ball pythons and two of my dogs are rescues.

Personally, while I love venomous snakes (Crotalids to be precise), I don't have a living arrangement that would allow me to keep them. I have a small condo in a complex full of children, I don't have a spare room to dedicate to just snakes, and I own small dogs. My neighbors would probably not appreciate learning that I had a venomous snake in their midst, and I'd rather not have another run-in with the Association.

I've come to the conclusion that going hiking in the hills and answering the occasional call from a freaked-out homeowner is the only way I can exercise my passion.

I'm ambivalent on the idea of venomoiding. On one hand, why mess with millions of years of evolution. On the other hand, humans have been messing with said evolution for their entire history. I had my puppy's dewclaws removed, mainly for my convenience, so I don't have to be constantly clipping those nails. However, he's a Pekingese, and 2000 years of inbreeding have caused the dewclaws in the first place. Just like religion, each person with an opinion on this issue is convinced that they are right and that everyone who believes differently is wrong.

I can't see myself taking a perfectly good rattlesnake and having its venom glands removed, unless - UNLESS - I was going to be using it to teach something, like veterinary techniques or something. In that case, the benefit to the Order might outweigh the detriment to the individual.

I certainly can't see myself doing it just so I can say "Hey, isn't it cool that I've got a rattler?". I don't need a rattler to impress people. Most are impressed enough that I handle rattlers. (Not barehanded, thank you! I practice safe serpent!)

I personally do not believe that using snakes for educational programs is a valid reason to have them venomoided. I did such programs for school classes, scout groups, civic organizations, & the state of Florida's Hunter Education Program for thirty years with real snakes. I have been approached by more than one kid asking if the "fangs were pulled" or some such. If my answer were any other than an honest.."No, young man, if I make a mistake, I'll have to go to the hospital" I truly believe that the program would have lost a little of its effectiveness for that child.

As far as teaching veterinary procedures, I recently assisted in an excellent hands on seminar for vets learning safe handling & restraint techniques. The snakes were all real, & no-one was ever at any great risk.

~~Greg~~
One Educational Program

I personally keep all my reptiles because I think they are cool. And guess what some people keep them just to make MONEY. The sad truth is keeping reptiles in captivity is at the expense of the reptiles for human enjoyment. There are many (PETA) who argue that keeping them locked up in cages on newspaper is cruel....I hear those tones in this issue

Man changes his environment everday at the expense of other animals, whether it is neutering dogs, spraying pesticides, or eating meat. We also take safety measures, thats what seperates us from the chimps....we can think. People wear seatbelts, get vacinations, and take medicine. Some do not and I respect them, but it is our choice. Proper procedure and proper care of the animals are whats important. I believe importing, improper housing, and abuse are much worse of a problem than venomoiding. I wonder what are you people arguing for? No more eating meat? no more banging rats? no more leather? No more using hooks because I am a sissy? No more medical care for animals (spaying, neutering, chip implants, ear cropping, tail docking, removing non deadly growths or tumors? No more leashes/collars on dogs? What about keeping reptiles in general? There are valid reasons for keeping venomoids..educational shows, zoos, insurance and SAFETY. Again the procedure should be done by licensed vets who do the procedure humanely.

Now excuse me I am going to go and kick my dog.

I'm not against kicking dogs, but I only kick my dog because she's a masochist and enjoys it (I asked her). If you're going to kick a dog that doesn't enjoy it, you'd better have a valid reason, such as teaching elementary school students about physics.

It is true that people do a lot of things to animals for their own convenience or pleasure or profit. Many of these practices are considered normal or acceptable in some parts of the world but totally unacceptable in others.

Most people would rather not do any actual thinking about the ethical issues, but instead offer halfhearted justifications like "Neutering dogs is okay, therefore venomoiding rattlesnakes is okay." Or, "Importing reptiles causes suffering and death, therefore venomoiding is also okay." Or, "Snakes suffer just by being in captivity, so it doesn't matter what else we do to them to make them suffer more."

That's a cop-out. Every one of these things mentioned is a very different ethical issue with complex factors to weigh, and they deserve to be considered separately. You may well come to the final decision in your own mind that venomoiding is okay, but you should do it after learning all the facts and doing some real and serious thinking about the individual issues.

Spaying a dog or cat is not a do-it-at-home procedure. It is performed only by licensed veterinarians who use appropriate pain medications. Anyone attempting this sort of surgery at home with amateur tools and inadequate drugs would probably be arrested. There are not many ethical concerns about the pain and suffering involved in this procedure, and there are proven health benefits to the patient. There is also the benefit of preventing the birth of unwanted pets that will either have to be killed or will create a serious problem in the ecosystem as a non native predator. Those are the ethical factors to be weighed in deciding whether or not spaying is an acceptable procedure to perform.

The venomoid operation is very often a do-it-at-home procedure, creating very serious concerns about how humane (and reliable) the procedure may be. It has absolutely no health benefit to the patient and can more appropriately be considered a detriment, crippling a healthy animal's normal function. The operation is a serious and invasive one, involving physical trauma and significant post-operative pain that is most often not properly addressed from a veterinary standpoint. Those are the ethical factors to consider when deciding whether or not venomoiding is an appropriate procedure.

It is very true that the commercial importation of reptiles for the pet trade causes suffering and death on a much larger scale than the comparatively limited market for venomoiding. But that wrong doesn't make anything else right. You can't point to one bad thing and say that it makes another bad thing okay. That is an empty and fallacious argument.

It is also true that snakes can suffer in captivity if they are taken from the wild and placed in poor husbandry conditions. In fact they will probably die. It is also true that snakes kept under good conditions with quality husbandry and veterinary care will grow larger and live much longer than their wild counterparts without demonstrating any visible signs of stress due to captivity.

There is a vast difference between captivity that consists of a 10 gallon aquarium and a hot rock and really good quality housing and husbandry. You cannot reasonably discuss the issue of keeping reptiles in captivity without considering the quality of their treatment. The statement that snakes suffer simply from being in captivity is a difficult one to assess because the quality of captivity can vary quite considerably.

There is nothing particularly macho about handling fully venomous snakes as opposed to venomoids. It is so remarkably easy to do that I don't think any special credit should accrue to people who have learned these simple skills. It doesn't take much to figure out which end of the snake hook goes under the snake and which end you should hold on to. Learning to drive an automobile is a much more complex and difficult skill than learning how to move venomous snakes around with good safety tools. It's also statistically more dangerous, and there is no known antivenom for an automobile accident.

Good quality husbandry certainly does not include "stupid snake tricks" where the animal is provoked and stressed to put on a show for its tormentors. Snakes should be moved gently and safely with professional tools in a quiet and nonstressful manner. Macho snake wrestling might be good fun for the handler but it is not in the best interest of the physically fragile reptile. Anyone who finds themselves really pitting their strength and speed against a snake has screwed up royally somewhere in the handling process. I back off long before things get to that stage and gently regain control of the animal in a way that doesn't result in a direct struggle.

Snakes are really not too bright and can be behaviorally managed pretty well just by manipulating their environment. A good example of behavioral management is a trap box. Most animals will happily box or bag themselves when presented with an attractive dark hiding place. This is a much less stressful and more humane method of capture than pinning or grabbing. Being macho is a good way to injure your animals as well as yourself.

Good quality husbandry means always making the choices that are better for the animal's welfare. That means safer and less stressful handling techniques, proper housing and humane care. I don't happen to believe that cutting pieces off of a snake for fun constitutes humane care.

Ms.TT,

Hi. First off I would like to say I respect not only your convictions on this matter but also the way you debate the issue with intelligence and honor. I applaud your handling skills and comfort level with your cobras. But I ask you to consider this. Not everyone is you , like you , or as comfortable as you are with these deadly creatures. Not everyone has a mentor to learn proper handling skills from. How many times have we seen people on these forums ask for help in learning handling techniques and what not only to be turned down? Perfectly understandable considering the world we live in with high insurance costs and ridiculous litigation. However , the fact remains some people just dont have access to the training you make out to be readily available and easy to learn. Also ask yourself this , what would you rather have as an example to the public? A venomoid owner who is completely dedicated to his or her animal. Someone who provides the best care , prey items , and housing conditions for it. Someone who only serves as a good example of what a good keeper should be. Or would you rather have another jacka** who keeps his animals in poor conditions , has them escape and cause panic in his or her community , and gets bit on a frequent basis usually due to handling the animal incorrectly while showing off for their buddies? I would much rather live next to the former! As to the practice of the surgery involved. I kind of sensed from your words that you dont have a big problem with this when it is performed by a professional. Am I completely wrong here? I too would agree that these garage surgeons should be put out of business. The animals welfare should always be top priority! If you would focus more on these people then on the process itself I think you would be doing the animals you love so much a much greater service. It is also a fight that I, other hot keepers, and I assume many people who enjoy venomoids would support you in fully. I truly enjoy reading your posts and learning from them. I hope we can continue to discuss this issue in a manner that proves beneficial to all. Good day.

Tom E.

I think that anyone who is deeply committed to learning how to keep and handle venomous snakes safely can find a way to do so. While no book or web site can teach you everything you need to know, there are some good ones out there. There are also zoos, nature centers, wildlife rescue facilities and other places that you can volunteer your time at. Most private keepers are also very glad to help another keeper along, assuming that the new keeper is reasonably polite and good company.

Quite honestly I believe black racers, Asian rat snakes and coachwhips to be *more* physically challenging than most elapid species. I bagged a 4' black racer in the morning and a same sized black mamba in the afternoon, and it was definitely the racer that was the hardest to handle. I believe that you can get some excellent experience working with these animals that can prepare you very well for handling elapids. That's the way I learned, and it worked just fine for me.

I don't think there are many good nonvenomous analogues to crotalids, but common sense, a sturdy hook and long tongs are a very good starting point for any terrestrial viperid. Also starting out with "hands off" keeping is a good idea. Snakes can be routinely moved around and their cages cleaned while they are in a trap box or a sliding-door, dual compartment cage system. Unless an issue comes up that requires veterinary care, I cannot think of any reason for the average owner to have to touch or hook or handle their venomous snake at all in years of keeping.

You are correct to point out that there is a problem with irresponsible keepers who show off their venomous snakes in an inappropriate manner, or allow them to escape. Unfortunately whether or not those snakes are venomoid does not always change the scenario and could even make it worse. I can easily imagine an irresponsible owner taking his "harmless" cobra to a park or a shopping mall and causing quite an incident, which would be made worse if the cobra turned out to be one of those not-entirely-successful venomoids with some gland tissue left. Considering that elapid venom glands are reach all the way to the base of the fang and can be somewhat irregular and hard to differentiate from surrounding tissue, that's not too unlikely a scenario.

I have very little issue with properly licensed veterinarians who use appropriate pain medications doing venomoid procedures for zoos and educational exhibits. I do think that most educational exhibits can and should be done with normal, intact animals, but in some cases it is not possible for a public zoo to maintain the insurance and antivenom stocks. In that case I could see it justified. For the private sector, strictly for the pleasure of an individual, I think it is much less justified. I would rather see people take the time to educate themselves properly than take quickie shortcuts by deliberately crippling an animal.

If you are unwilling to take that time and insist on instant gratification, there may be some venomoids on the market whose purchase would not support the unlicensed practicioners or the dealers who profit from snake butchery. There may be some rescue animals available from time to time (I've had those offered to me in fact) as well as snakes operated on by a licensed veterinarian using appropriate technique and humane pain relief. It would certainly be better to seek out those animals than to give any money to the backyard butchers.

"It is very true that the commercial importation of reptiles for the pet trade causes suffering and death on a much larger scale than the comparatively limited market for venomoiding. But that wrong doesn't make anything else right. You can't point to one bad thing and say that it makes another bad thing okay. That is an empty and fallacious argument."

Then why did you buy that wild caught king cobra, You could have bought a captive born but instead you bought a wild caught one. You need to practice what you preach!

I have in fact purchased a large number of imported wild caught snakes. In some cases these animals were used for venom research after being quarantined and medicated. In other cases these were sick or injured animals that needed immediate veterinary help just to survive. In a few cases they were purchased for personal breeding projects.

I have thought long and hard about the ethics of participating in the import trade, and have come to the following conclusions. You may agree with them or you may not. I'm not always sure that I am completely comfortable with them myself, and I take every opportunity to learn how to do things in a better and more humane way whenever possible. But I do the best I can to improve the standards of their care and treatment, and I think I have made a positive difference at least for some animals some of the time.

The import trade is the cause of a good deal of animal suffering, because there are some uneducated and careless people involved in profiting from animals they don't know how to care for. I do what I can to help mitigate that suffering on a fairly active basis.
In fact I spend a nontrivial amount of time and money fixing the things I can.

It's a job that is much bigger than me, and there are some things I just can't fix. An example of what I can't fix is the fact that there are very poor and ignorant people in Africa catching snakes with wire nooses to sell for a few coins to feed their families. I quite seriously proposed to raise enough funds to send a load of snake hooks and tongs for more humane snake captures, after having seen and treated too many bad noose injuries. I was advised by folks who have actually been there that such a shipment would immediately be taken apart for its metal value and used by desperately poor people for everyday survival needs. As long as there are exporters willing to buy snakes for a few coins, there will be poor people in Africa willing to bring them in, but these people aren't snake handlers and they don't do a very good job.

I can ask the importers to let me take the injured animals away with no payment, in return for documentation from the vet clinic that the animals arrived injured and unsalable. In turn the importers pass on their refusal of payment to the exporters, who might have some chance of explaining directly to the ignorant peasant snake catchers than an injured or "defanged" snake is not worth any money. I can't solve the problem entirely, but I can do a little bit to help in this way.

Incidentally, the wild caught king cobra you are referring to is in the process of making some important contributions to the veterinary literature by helping to establish normal blood chemistry values for her species. More tests will be taken throughout her life as she adjusts to captivity, but that initial data set from a freshly wild caught animal was definitely important.

Is the data we got worth the stress and disruption in that young cobra's life because she was taken from the wild? I don't really know. If it was up to me, I would prefer that these animals not be imported at all because they are difficult captives and they do suffer considerable stress during the adjustment period which may last a year or more. But I don't have a big red button in front of me marked "Stop the import trade right now" that I can press.

What I do have in front of me are snakes that have travelled a long way and need more care that they are likely to get at an importer's. I want to give them that care, especially the ones that really aren't going to make it without veterinary help. I do think hard about where my dollars are going and what I am supporting by purchasing imported animals, and I try to use the leverage of those dollars to keep the process as humane as possible.

It's not a perfect solution, but frankly I don't think a perfect solution exists. Boycotting the import houses doesn't work; they won't even notice. Helping to educate them and offering free fecal exams, books, restraint equipment and vet care to importers does seem to make a real difference, so that's what I do. It's not nearly enough, but it's something.

Are you ever going to grow up? Lets put aside the fact you intentionally inject yourself with venom then go climb trees, that pretty much explains itself. Your latest classic has pretty much convinced me of how truly ignorant you are. "I have to go puke" is something one expects to hear from a 13 year old kid , not an adult. If you dont like venomoids I can respect that. Your attitude I cannot. I have seen many good argument/points made about venomoids on this forum and have learned from them all. However I've yet to see you make one valid point of your own. All I've seen from you is petty insults, verbal abuse, and the mindless repeating of anti venomoid mainstays such as "they need it for digestion". Is that all you have to contribute? To all the people who support Budman and his little tantrums....ask yourself this , is this really the kind of person you want standing out in front making your case against venomoids? I wouldn't! I would want someone who could argue my point intelligently with facts and evidence not insults and rhetoric. The issue of venomoids is not going to go away and is not really the issue here. The issue is respect for others even when you passionately disagree with what they're doing!!! Now just for the record I do not own any venomoids, only fully "hot" animals and other non venomous. However I do not have a problem with venomoids. I only say this so that you dont think I only take offense to your rantings because I own venomoids. I am also not a "hot" expert. I do not have the knowledge of BGF or Mark O'Shea. I am only a hobbyist who thought these boards were for the betterment and advacement of the hobby and those that participate in it. I absolutely love my hobby and would hate to lose it because of people like you that have and continue to set a bad example to others involved and to the public in general. That's where we're headed if we dont learn to get along and support each other. Everyday another city or town passes legislation banning venomous(and often non venomous) reptiles. The only way it will stop is we become a strong , united lobby. For that we need good people out front who can work with others. I challenge you to be more like that person. If you truly love these animals as you say you do then it shouldn't be much of a problem! Best wishes and good luck.

Tom E.

Well you admit you dont have too much experiance in this.
I just crossed my 30 year mark dealing with hot herps and being bitten.
30 years that is I might be guessing but older than you are
I might not be famous but I have lots of experiance
The bottom line is venomoiders need to become the snakers
they think they are!
they should learn instead of just buy a venomoid.
you are a good example.
a better than all venomoider
typical.
listen to TT she has no problems dealing with hot king cobras and the like SO WHATS WRONG WITH YOU?
HAVE FUN BUT NOT AT THE SNAKES EXPENSE
bud

Try reading the article again. I DO NOT own venomoids.

Something tells me you are upset b/c venomoids steal your thunder. I seriously doubt every person who owns a venomoid does so to fake being like you.

Well said Tom!

I had been keeping reptiles for over 30 years, venomous reptiles for 13 years. I generally have kept anywhere from 5 to 25 animals (not including offspring) over this period with about half being rattlesnakes and vipers. I have always kept reptiles because I enjoyed them, never to make money. And in fact have never made any money on them.

About two years ago I decided I would like to keep cobras. I knew that they were much different than what I had previously kept so I tried to gain some experience before getting them. I followed up on two leads, 1 of these turned out to be a guy who wanted me to pay him to clean his cages, the other was a guy who kept the animals mainly for profit in horrible conditions. (small tanks with screen tops and brick to secure). This is all I could find and believe me I tried. In addition I did this for myself I was already permitted to have them. I was uncomfortable with both these situations for one I am not a biker and two I am a nerd, and these guys were bad news. I talked with a few friends and decided I would try a venomoid to gain experience.

I obtained a captive born venomoid monocled cobra. The experience I gained from this animal is invaluable. I found out very quickly the difference between this species and any other rattlesnake or viper I owned. My pride and joy is a 6 foot western diamondback, this cobra made the rattlesnake seem like a ball python. I could never have imagined the speed, intelligence, and desire to bite me the cobra showed. Over a few months I had several cobra personality experiences that I had never seen in a snake. Examples include hooding then moving away, then coming back unhooded for a bite. I was used to the viper "beartrap" attitude. Get close get hurt. This cobra was aware of me and wanted to bite and that included charging out of the cage. I never was bitten and always treated this snake as hot. Matter of fact I never fed it live so it may be hot for all I know.

Why am I telling this story? generally I do not respond to the debates, and use the forum for info on care. But one thing bothered me in this debate. My granddad always told me that there's only one thing worse than being ignorant and that is passing ignorance around as fact.

The people that call these animals "mutilated" "unhealthy" are both ignorant and liars.

The snake I have is healthier than any other cobra I have seen. It is as healthy or healthier than my unaltered cobras. There are no scars or physical defects. When she was small there was indentations where the glands where removed. She grows as fast, her stools are equal, and she eats just as well. To call my snake mutilated, why you people keep your animals in sweater boxes merely for profit is disturbing. The procedure used on this snake took less than 30 minutes, it was given pain meds and was anestisized. The vet who did the procedure has an almost 100% success rate much higher thanthat of importers. She was eating within 3 days of the procedure, she still had sutures when I got her.

Regardless of what you choose to do, or think this animal gave me experience and could have saved my life if I was bitten. I do not have to get a rat snake, I wanted a cobra and chose this path and it helped me, and the snake is super healthy and is kept better than most herpers out there would keep her.

If you are against man using animals then I respect your thoughts and views, but do not spread lies and misinformation, tainted with your personal opinions on a forum that is for providing information to the herp community.

Bob Barry

"but do not spread lies and misinformation, tainted with your personal opinions on a forum that is for providing information to the herp community."

And what exactly do you suppose you are doing? Lies and misinformation? Tainted personal opinion? What is YOUR view if not an opinion? Just because most of the hot herpers here will disagree with you, are their opinions any less valid than yours? How do you figure that? Just about any advice you will ever give someone here can be disputed by someone else, and they will probably have more experience than you, do judging from your post. See ... opinions. Get it?

Here's my 'tainted' personal opinion ... you should have bought a Coachwhip or a big Rat Snake to train for Elapids. And further, my opinion is that you purposely contributed to the pain and suffering of one of God's most beautiful creatures just for pleasure. It's no different than hunters who kill for trophies and waste the meat. If your family was hungry and you had no money, I wouldn't bat an eye if you killed the Cobra, cooked it and then ate it. But you contributed to it's suffering just for your personal pleasure. And that's wrong ... in my tainted opinion. )

Phil Holbrook

Phil,

How is my telling of my personal experience lies? All I hear is people that say the animals are mutilated or sick, dying..........that is simply not true. I know this to be FACT as I have a venomoid that is in great shape.

Here's my 'tainted' personal opinion ... you should have bought a Coachwhip or a big Rat Snake to train for Elapids. My 14 ft anaconda could not have prepared me for Naja! You suggest a ratsnake!

Coachwhip or big rat snake............what a joke. Maybe I will listen to you and take a chance of being killed Haha! Theres nothing like the real thing.

And further, my opinion is that you purposely contributed to the pain and suffering of one of God's most beautiful creatures just for pleasure.

Like you do by keeping reptiles in cages, or killing rodents, eating meat, wearing leather, spraying pesticides, using rat traps, swatting bugs, building homes on their habitat, driving a car that kills animals, keeping reptiles that finally got to you after 100's died in the importing, buying products that produce toxins and waste that destroy habitat. It's no different than hunters who kill for trophies and waste the meat. Oh yes it is, my snake is alive and kept as properly as can be, and this year will have babies to take the load off of wild populations.

If your family was hungry and you had no money, I wouldn't bat an eye if you killed the Cobra, cooked it and then ate it. (the question is how hungry? even a little bit?)

Thanks I might have starved and let my family starve if not for your permission. But you contributed to it's suffering just for your personal pleasure. And that's wrong ... in my tainted opinion. )
I finally agree with you and you make my point..............we are man, they are animals, and keeping them is for personal pleasure. As someone else on the forum said "saints like you should set your animals free, join peta and stop all this horrrible suffering we allow on all of gods creatures"

I respect your opinion Phil but I made a choice to keep reptiles and I am not ignorant enough to believe that for 1 minute it is not for my pleasure at the animals expense. Racers in blenders.....come on!

Bob

I know there is no such thing as a brown monocled cobra because I have a bright pink monocled cobra right here in front of me! And I don't have any brown monocled cobras in my collection. Therefore all monocled cobras are bright pink.

Sorry, but the logic doesn't wash. You have a healthy venomoid that was operated on as a youngster by a proper veterinarian, leaving minimal scarring and no infection. That does not mean there are not a lot more snakes out there that were "operated" on a lot more crudely by non veterinarians. Those snakes often don't do so well, and they don't look so good either.

Next show I go to, I'll take pictures. I guess you have to see it to believe it.

Are you aware that the babies of that snake will be fully-functional venomous?
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

Okay. Here's my venomoid experience. I get the regular privilege of funding veterinary treatment for the messed-up results of amateur venomoiders who attempt things like crude de-fanging. That hurts, especially when some of these snakes don't make it because they are already so far gone into septicaemia and osteomyelitis. What hurts worse is seeing the ones I can't help, like the canebrakes with big puffy infected heads being displayed for sale at Columbia.

Just about every damn venomous show I go to, I see some pretty nasty handiwork that makes me sick. Lethargic, obviously sick animals with their sutures still in and their cheeks sunken, kept nice and cold and stressed so they can't heal from what was just done to them before they were shipped in to be sold. I would bet that a WBC on any of these animals would look pretty poor.

These animals are certainly mutilated and unhealthy, and they do represent the typical fresh venomoid offered on the open market. If you would like to call me ignorant or a liar, I request that you discuss the matter with the veterinarians I work with. Perhaps one of them can enlighten you as to what happens to a snake that undergoes an inappropriate surgical procedure with no pain meds performed by an unlicensed person with non sterile tools.

You describe a procedure that was performed by a veterinarian with appropriate medication and sterile instruments. I have much less of a problem with that than I do with what normally goes on in the venomoid market, though I still don't think it's ethically justified just for your private pleasure. But lessening the concern about proper veterinary care, anesthesia and post operative pain is certainly an important ethical factor.

Pictured on the link below is the kind of mess I get to clean up after, made by some idiots who thought it was a good idea to try to defang their mambas. Keep following the links and you'll see x-ray scans as well. What I've actually posted is only a small amount of the photodocumentation of what we've done at the clinic on a number of these cases. Eventually I'll get more of it up.

People really do this kind of thing to snakes for convenience and profit. What is pictured here is really the absolute bottom rung and doesn't even properly qualify as venomoiding so much as crude de-fanging, but I have encountered people who are attempting full adenectomy using the refrigerator as "anesthesia". How humanely the procedure is done varies a lot, but there is no way for anyone who is not a properly licensed veterinarian to be doing it really well because the drugs involved are legally restricted.

Veterinary care articles

Quite a few of the people here opposed to venomoids have no real case. Quite frankly, the posts I've read all have faulty logic. Where's the logic in this summary: Most the venomoids I have seen are unhealthy, making EVERYONE who owns a venomoid bad. Yeah, maybe most venomoids you've seen have been mutilated. Have you considered how many snakes are mistreated? Just take a look around and you'll see snakes being horribly mistreated. So by your logic, because of all the idiots out there, we shouldn't be keeping snakes period.
And all this mumbo jumbo about humans mutilating animals to fit our needs and all that crap is kinda stupid too. You don't have an animal castrated because you don't like the look of his balls people... Doing this procedure is beneficial to the animal and us. Think of how many stray cats are out there, do you think their health conditions are optimal? Yes we do things to our advantage, a lot of things, but some of the things we do don't really effect the animal. Venomous snakes don't need their venom glands to survive, chances are, if done properly THEY DON'T KNOW THEY'RE NOT HOT. Cats and dogs don't NEED there sex organs intact to survive. Cropping a dogs ears isn't a horrible process, you're not trying to intentionally hurt the animal. That's like saying that pulling wisdom teeth and curcumcision are the works of the devil. If you HATE, keyword here is HATE venomoids, then you should REALLY HATE ALL CREATURES IN CAPTIVITY. Instead of going at the throat of venomoid keepers(who didn't butcher their animal), spend your energy trying to prevent idiots from getting ahold of venomous snakes and trying to butcher them.
Maybe what I'm trying to say here is. Don't use bad examples for this topic. Don't say, well most the venomoids I've seen were butchered meaning it's a horrible process that should be banned. What should should show are statistics that say something like this: Even done with the proper equipment, this surgery has proven to still be detrimental to the snakes health. It will make you sound more credible and people would be able to atleast respect your opinion.

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I'm sorry, but judging by how you type and present yourself those bites you so proudly adore have affected your brain.

I don't think he is wrong to share his experience. Maybe there is a place for SI. SI would allow you not to go to the hospital if you were to get tagged by a purely neurotoxic Hot.

I have to disagree with your assertion that he should go play in traffic. I think he has a place here in the forum and he contributes to it.

I for one, would like to learn more about SI. I probably won't ever need it (I only ever plan to keep Copperheads and Pigmies and others of that caliber of snake) but I would like to learn more about SI. Heck, I almost wonder sometimes if it wouldn't be worth it to even SI against copper and pigmy (though from a strictly risk vs. benefit point of view, SI is probably not justified, but I'd none-the-less like to have some immunity to their venom).

Cheers. Happy Hotings.

I'd say: Thx for sharing your SI experience with us and please keep us up-dated on your latest projects. I'd like to learn more about SI.

You see, you just wasted a lot of typing. I'll tell you why:

I am perfectly aware of what bill does and why he does it with SI. I also think its a good thing. What my post was about was that out of the few years I have read this forum all of his posts about the subject of this thread are the same. Everyone of them. He sounds like a broken record. It would be different if he actually applied himself in his post and posted something that looks coherent. I think he should go play in traffic, it might right whatever is loose in his head.

If you want to be all political about this post as well feel free to do so.

I think an all venomoid show is a great Idea. Those of us who have venomoid "eating machines" who are healthy and scar free would love a chance to show you our snakes, and bet that you would not be able to tell the venomoids from the hots. Just let me know when and where, when you are done puking......Robin

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venomoid/ A place to discuss venomoid ownership