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A continuation of Sasheenas post below.. regarding genetics experts and sex linked genetics for reccessive traits in brooksi morphs (PICS)

bluerosy May 22, 2004 11:06 AM

I have produced the Peanut Butter brooksi for the last three seasons and I have never produced a female Peanut Butter.
The Peanut Butter recessive trait starts out amelanistic but then gets more pigment and turns into a type of hypomelanism as it matures.
The pic on the bottom shows a PB male on the left. A female het PB in the middle and a male het PB on the far right. Note that the het female (middle) is lighter than the het male PB (right):

To date ('99 when the first male Peanut Butter was produced) there has never been a FEMALE PEANUT BUTTER PRODUCED. I have been the only person to produce the PB morph in the last three years and I have also never produced a female PB.

On a side note there is an unusual color difference in the het males and het females of this morph. Here is a pic which is shows a typical female het Peanut Butter and a typical het male Peanut Butter taken this year. They are both clutch mates from '03 and yet both are distinctively different in color.
MALE HET PB:

FEMALE HET PB:

1)So, whats going on with this reccesive gene? How does the Peanut Butter morph start out amelanistic lavender and then turn hypomelanistc?

2)Is it possible that recessive traits can be also sex linked?

Replies (16)

foxturtle May 22, 2004 05:49 PM

No idea on the sex linked stuff, and the different het conditions, but I've heard of leaky mutations, where some of the wild type function "leaks" through over time, in this case, resulting in an animal that starts out looking like an albino, but grows up looking hypo, or normal.

By the way, how did the PB morph come about?

rtdunham May 23, 2004 10:02 AM

I have produced the Peanut Butter brooksi for the last three seasons and I have never produced a female Peanut Butter.
that's odd. in birds, at least--and birds and reptiles are closely related--the sex-linked traits show up first on the females. With birds, here's why that happens: a sex-linked trait is one that occurs on the gene pair that determines gender. an added gene on that pair is what "makes" a female a female. that leaves only ONE position available for the sex-linked color morph gene. So if ONE gene is present on the pair, on a female it's the only color gene so the trait manifests itself even if the trait is a recessive one (there's no "other" or wild-type gene on that pair to dominate it); on a male, there's a corresponding and dominant "normal" or wild type gene on that same pair, so the male with a single gene for that recessive sex linked trait looks normal and is het. (OR maybe the females are single factor and the males double factor--see below)

at least, that's my understanding of how it works. paul hollander will be able to give a much better (and perhaps more correct?!) answer to this and my comments below. Paul?

>>The Peanut Butter recessive trait starts out amelanistic but then gets more pigment and turns into a type of hypomelanism as it matures.
this and the picture confuse me. the three snakes-in-hand are clearly hatchlings, so they're at the "start out" phase. but the snake on the left doesn't look anything like an amelanistic to me. nothing like other getula amels, at least: amel chain kings are white with yellow bands; amel cal kings generally the same, though i acknowledge the diff on the lavendar albino, or whatever they're called. still, that latter type would look more like other amels to most people, imho, than it would look like the snake on the left in the first pic, i'd think. so why call it an amel? is that what all amel brooksi look like? that would sure be a dramatic diff from the other amel getula.

>>The pic on the bottom shows a PB male on the left. A female het PB in the middle and a male het PB on the far right. Note that the het female (middle) is lighter than the het male PB (right):
Again, Paul will more intelligently address this than i can. But let me describe a "single-double-factor co-dominant sex-linked" trait I worked with with the Gouldian Finch, when i was breeding birds (I hope i got that nomenclature right)! Maybe this example will make something click as you try to sort out what's happening with your PBs.

In Gouldian Finches, the normal body color is dark forest green. A bird of the above type with only ONE of the mutation genes would be light green if a male, but yellow if a female. Why? It's as if the "yellow" gene "blends" with the normal green gene, on the male, to produce a light green, diluted green. And in fact these males were called dilutes. But remember on the female the other slot on that gene pair is occupied by the gene that makes her a female, so there's no blending, she just ends up yellow. Breed to produce a bird with TWO of the mutation genes, and you get males that are yellow bodied...those males would have two of the yellow genes on the same pair, no green wild-type gene to blend with it, so the full effect of the morph is shown.

(NOTE: if i've got any of this wrong, i apologize. I THINK it's an accurate explanation, while perhaps not entirely correct in the terminology, of what was happening)

I mention it because it could be what's happening with your PBs, except that in your case the males are lighter. Maybe those lighter males are double-factor animals? Maybe the sex-determination gene function is different in snakes than in birds? If they're "the other way around" then maybe the dark animal at right in the pic is NOT a het--maybe the parent you figured was a homozygous parent is a SINGLE factor example, not a double factor--in that instance half the males would get the gene from that father, half would get a gene from the mother (if the parent is a double-homozygous parent then all the males would get the mutant gene and if it's one of these single-double factor co-dominant traits, all males would show the effects, but if the parent is single factor (maybe you haven't seen a double factor male example yet?) then you'd get some males that were in fact het, and some that weren't, and because it's co-dominant the half that are "het" SHOW the trait, the other half don't carry any gene for it at all.

So it'd be useful to know more about test pairings you've done. What produced these three babies? What's the parentage of the three? What test breedings have you done with the parents that produced the first PB three years ago? The outcomes? What other babies were in the clutch with that first PB? And how have you paired them up? The outcomes? (I bought the first "yellow" gould genes into the U.S., and it took more than ayear of breeding and this kind of analysis of the results before we figured out what was going on...and the gouldians can reach reproductive age at 6 mos, whereas your snakes take a couple years at least, so 3 yrs might not have given you time to have seen enuff diff breeding results to have the data necessary, whereas in 3 yrs i was on perhaps the 6th generation of the finches).

1)So, whats going on with this reccesive gene? How does the Peanut Butter morph start out amelanistic lavender and then turn hypomelanistc?
well, one question would be whether it's actually a simple recessive gene.

also, an animal probably doesn't start out as one thing and end up as another, you're just describing appearances, not genotype. Example: amel hondurans--start out white and (red and yellow) or white and (orangeish-red and orangeish-red) but some of them gain a huge amount of yellow over time, end up with all the white turned bright yellow. And some don't. they're all still amels when they hatch and amels as adults, they didn't turn into something else. some other factors brought about some changes in them as they aged. so it would maybe be useful to describe color changes, not changes in terms that we consider genetic traits.
>>
>>2)Is it possible that recessive traits can be also sex linked?
sure. the black headed lady gouldian finch is a recessive sex-linked trait (or expressed in the other way, red-headedness is a dominant sex-linked trait. for practical purposes this means females of either type can be ONLY "pure"--that is, red with no black gene (remember the sex-determinant gene is filling the other spot) or black with no red gene. A male, however, can be 'pure' red and red visually, with a 2nd red gene filling the second slot, or red het/black, showing the dominant red gene but hiding or carrying the recessive black gene.

I hope this helps, and that when others smarter about these things elaborate (Ok, clarify!) something will click that helps you sort out what's happening with your critters.

terry

bluerosy May 23, 2004 10:03 PM

Maybe those lighter males are double-factor animals?

not sure what a double factor or single factor is but the females are nothing special as they mature they look like a normal brooksi and not a mutation.
Paul brought up a good point and that is if the females I have are from a het to het 'original' breeding or if they are from a PB male to a het female breeding. I wonder if these new female siblings would produce anything different?

So far my conclusions lead me to believe these are a type of hypo that only effects the males. If you look closely at the pic of the three in one hand you will see the middle female has a lot of black in the head area where the PB has NONE.

Whatever it is I wonder if this is something new to herpectoculture being the first sex linked gene.

So Terry, could you explain what the single factor and double factor means.. so that I can understand it?

Brandon Osborne May 23, 2004 10:49 AM

In my opinion, this is a type of hypomelanism. From the looks of the female (het) and the male PB, I would say the female could also be a PB. Hypo genes would differently than amel genes as most of us know. Hypo snakes show VARYING degrees of melanism. This is also evident in the yearling photos. The female looks like a PB. Look at the three hatchlings side by side. The male PB and the female het have a hazy cast to them, but the male het on the right is clear and shiny. Just something to think about. I think the female is a PB with a little more melanin. Have fun.

Brandon Osborne

bluerosy May 23, 2004 12:32 PM

I don't know Brandon. Here is a pic of hypo brooksi and the Peanut Butter brooksi. Look to me there is more there than meeets the eye.

Normal hypo brooksi clutch:

Peanut Butter brooksi :

more Hypos:

another hypo:

another hypo:

Peanut Butter:

When these PB's hatch out this year I am going to make comparison shots with Tim Ricks Lavenders and Love/beard hypos. I will also make photos showing the ontogenetic color change that goes on in the following months / years.

Jeff Schofield May 23, 2004 03:29 PM

It would be more easily determined if quantitative data are accompanied.Provided the parents were either both het or homo/het then the sheer number of PB offspring will be far too low to make any statistical determination yet.How many MALES have been produced?Are the females just showing a lesser version of the trait?Sex linked traits are usually passed on in males as its their DNA that creates sex.....This may be an interesting notation because it may well be ANOTHER example of the "HYPO"/lavender albino query that I had presented to Terry D on the milk forum a while ago.We will eventually find out exactly what is going on,until then KEEP GOOD RECORDS is all I can say,good luck,Jeff

bluerosy May 23, 2004 05:13 PM

I have two adult male PB's that I have bred to 6 adult female hets. One female died last yr.

I also bred a male PB to a normal hypo (Beard line)female two years ago and the hatchlings all came out normal ("double" het for ?).

I wanted to prove the PB gene was not related to the Love/Beard//line ect hypo. The breeding to the PB proves the hypo gene is NOT related. Another reason I wanted to do this was that the original wildcaught PB stock came from the Loves around the same time the hypo stock was collected within the same area. The Loves were unaware of this new mutation in their collection and sold normal unknown het babies. A friend of friend in calif discovered it from two neonates he purchased from them and raised up. When he discovered the new mutation he called my friend in Florida and he told him these animals were assigned a number by the Loves. So the following year they picked all the remaining stock from the Loves without their knowledge of the new mutation.

Jeff Schofield May 23, 2004 07:35 PM

Rainer,you had a couple founding PBs(males)and 6 def het fems?? How do you know they were definate hets? A first generation crossback would have only produced poss hets,the 2nd generation would have produced definate hets but that would mean there are LOTS of pb's out there(how many are there?).Did all 6 female hets prove het?To what degree?How many eggs/how many morphs were produced in each clutch?Is the trait just more pronounced in males?As juveniles?As adults?I think you were correct to try and breed it with another hypo line...but the resulting dual morphs will likely continue to be a bit problematical to determine....maybe like the hybino hondurans? Continue the good work,Jeff

Sasheena May 23, 2004 07:27 PM

Sex linked traits are usually passed on in males as its their DNA that creates sex.....

If the male snake is ZZ and the female snake is Zw, wouldn't the FEMALE be the one who creates sex, unlike mammals?

Also if the PB mutation is a recessive trait or a codominant trait, wouldn't you have a strong expression in homozygous males, but a lesser expression in hemizygous females?
-----
~Sasheena

Jeff Schofield May 23, 2004 07:56 PM

any colubrids to my knowledge.It would make the most sense to either figure there not to be enough PBs to make such a statement or that for some reason the recessive trait is more apparant in males---but not sexed linked.I would favor either of these theories over the 2 prior without more hard data,Jeff

Paul Hollander May 23, 2004 05:07 PM

>I have produced the Peanut Butter brooksi for the last three seasons and I have never produced a female Peanut Butter.
The Peanut Butter recessive trait starts out amelanistic but then gets more pigment and turns into a type of hypomelanism as it matures.

>To date ('99 when the first male Peanut Butter was produced) there has never been a FEMALE PEANUT BUTTER PRODUCED. I have been the only person to produce the PB morph in the last three years and I have also never produced a female PB.

>On a side note there is an unusual color difference in the het males and het females of this morph. Here is a pic which is shows a typical female het Peanut Butter and a typical het male Peanut Butter taken this year. They are both clutch mates from '03 and yet both are distinctively different in color.

>1)So, whats going on with this reccesive gene? How does the Peanut Butter morph start out amelanistic lavender and then turn hypomelanistc?

Quick answer: I'm not sure what is going on. But not everything is fully developed at birth. How often do you see a beard growing on a six months old baby boy? One possibility is that the peanut butter mutant gene interferes with normal development of the granules in the melanin pigment cells so that you don't see a significant amount of pigment until much later than normal. This may be wrong though. To really find out, somebody needs to get a bit of a peanut butter's skin at various ages and look at it under a microscope. It might be a good master's degree project for somebody with a leaning toward histology.

>2)Is it possible that recessive traits can be also sex linked?

Yes indeed. Two examples: sexlinked color blindness and sexlinked hemophilia in humans. Two more examples: web-lethal and brown in pigeons.

The common sex chromosome pattern in birds is for males to have two large Z chromosomes and for females to have a large Z and small W chromosome. Colubrid snakes are similar, except the W chromosome, while smaller than the Z chromosome, is pretty large compared to other chromosomes. See Robert J. Baker, Greg A. Mengden, and James J. Bull. 1972. Karyotype studies of thirty-eight species of North American snakes. Copeia 1972: 257-265.

I am not very familiar with brooksi kings, so please correct me when I go off track.

I wonder whether you are defining the peanut butter phenotype too narrowly. The het male in your first post looks like what I would call a normal brooksi, though maybe with a touch of brown in the back instead of jet black. The "het" female looks very different, much lighter than her brother. I've seen pictures of kings that I think are brooksi that look like her, but I don't recall any information about sex. If she is typical of the females with the peanut butter mutant gene, then you may have to define a male peanut butter mutant phenotype and a female peanut butter mutant phenotype (like her).

This rather reminds me of the brindle mutant in the black rat snake. From the pictures, the female brindles are lighter than the normal black rat snakes, and the male brindles are lighter than the female brindles. AFAIK, brindle has not been tested to prove whether or not it is sexlinked, though.

As Terry and Jeff have said, records and quantitative data are an absolute must for figuring out something like this.

I'd like to see the results of the following matings:
1) a peanut butter male x a "het" female like in the picture.
2) A peanut butter male x a normal female
3) A normal male x a "het" female like the one in the picture, and then cross the male x female babies, male babies to normal females, and female babies to peanut butter males.

Good luck with your future breeding. And I hope more people start breeding the peanut butters.

Paul Hollander

bluerosy May 23, 2004 05:27 PM

I'd like to see the results of the following matings:
1) a peanut butter male x a "het" female like in the picture.
2) A peanut butter male x a normal female
3) A normal male x a "het" female like the one in the picture, and then cross the male x female babies, male babies to normal females, and female babies to peanut butter males.

I bred the PB male to a Beard line hypo and all the neonates came out normal (double?)hets.

I also bred a PB to a normal florida king and all the neonates came out normal.

All the breeding I have dome where from a PB male to a het female. I had a varieance of PB's within each clutch and definet het males and females.

The originator and his friend bred the two hets together to produce the first PB's males. Females were ratained for back breeding to the PB males.

The only thing I have to check and see is if any of the females I have came from a het to het breeding or a PB to het breeding.

Paul Hollander May 23, 2004 05:49 PM

Hmm. It doesn't sound as if peanut butter is a classic-type sexlinked mutant. That's if we are on the same wavelength for normal. But there is still incomplete sexlinkage and sex influenced mutants. I'll have more questions, but I've got to log out now. Back tomorrow.

Paul Hollander

Paul Hollander May 24, 2004 06:13 PM

>>I'd like to see the results of the following matings:
1) a peanut butter male x a "het" female like in the picture.
2) A peanut butter male x a normal female
3) A normal male x a "het" female like the one in the picture, and then cross the male x female babies, male babies to normal females, and female babies to peanut butter males.

I'm still trying to clarify some things in my own mind. The peanut butter males are almost white at hatching and darken to a peanut butter shade over time. How long does this process take?

How old were the three snakes in the top picture in the original post?

The males like the one marked "male het PB" in the original post come out of the egg jet black and lighten a little. From context, he seems to be about 6-7 months old when the picture was taken. Is this age correct, and would he stay about that color for the rest of his life?

The female marked "female het PB" in the original post also seems to be about 6-7 months old. Is the coloring typical of the females het for pb? What color was she when she hatched, did she darken or lighten with age, and will she stay about the same color?

I'm going to use the letter A to refer to the single male marked "het male pb" in the original post. And I'm going to use the letter B to refer to the single female marked "het female pb" in the original post.

>I bred the PB male to a Beard line hypo and all the neonates came out normal (double?)hets.

How many males, and how many females? How many males looked like A? How many males looked like B? How many females looked like A, and how many females looked like B? Were the babies retained long enough so that you could tell the difference?

>I also bred a PB to a normal florida king and all the neonates came out normal.

How many males, and how many females? How many males looked like A? How many males looked like B? How many females looked like A, and how many females looked like B? Were the babies retained long enough so that you could tell the difference?

>All the breeding I have dome where from a PB male to a het female. I had a varieance of PB's within each clutch and definet het males and females.

Did the female adults all look like A, all look like B, or did some look like A and some like B?

Lump the babies from all the PB male x like A females together and answer the questions below. And lump the babies from all the PB male x like B females together and answer the questions below for them.

How many males, and how many females? How were the babies sexed and at what age? How many males were PB? How many males looked like A? How many males looked like B? How many females looked like A, and how many females looked like B? Were the babies retained long enough so that you could tell the difference?

>The originator and his friend bred the two hets together to produce the first PB's males. Females were ratained for back breeding to the PB males.

Am I correct in assuming that of the original two snakes, the male looked like the snake I'm calling A? Did the female look like either A or B or like neither one?

Of the male babies from this mating, how many were PB males, how many males looked like A, did any males look like B, and did any males look neither PB nor like A nor like B? Of the females from this mating, how many looked like A, how many females looked like B, and did any females look like neither A nor B?

I wish I had more answers than questions. Basically right now I'm trying to list all the different phenotypes and assign numbers of babies to them for various matings.

Paul Hollander

bluerosy May 23, 2004 05:30 PM

Paul thanks for you help and info! I would be willing to donate (this yr) a few of the PB males and hets to someone master's degree project.

bluerosy May 23, 2004 05:33 PM

and one of the first PB males produced:

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