Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was listening to an interview on the radio with Peter Daszak - the executive director of the Consortium for Conservation Medicine. He was talking about aa lot of interesting things, eventually about zoos now NOT treating herps for parasites for a number of reasons. I know this is something some here have advocated. The audio file interview will be available on National Public Radio later today:

http://freshair.npr.org/

This is the guy that discovered the cause behind the global frog decline and has some interesting things to say about that too.

Joe

Great! I will try and hear that. It sounds interesting. I would like to know more about parasites, and bacteria in wild caught specimens. I have a theory about such things as per my last post.

Please feel free to post what you heard here, as we might miss the radio brodcast.
Tony.

I think it depends on the parasite involved and the numbers present. If it is a light to moderate load of a parasite that requires an intermediate host, then I would opt not to treat because those will tend to be self limiting over a period of time. If there is a heavy load that could be overwhelming in the short-term, then I might treat because of the added factor of the stress of capture and captivity.

If the parasite involved is one that has a direct life-cycle (no intermediate host required), then I will treat. This is because of the fact that the range of the snake is limited in captivity and will remain in close proximity to it's waste material. This can allow reinfection resulting in an overwhelming load of parasites. These, too, tend to be self limiting in the wild because of the much greater range of a wild animal and the greatly lessened probability that it will come into contact with it's waste material.

Even a parasite load that in a wild animal would not cause problems can bloom and cause problems in a snake in captivity that is immune-suppressed due to the stress of recent capture and captivity. I think a blanket policy to treat or not treat is less than wise. IMHO that decision has to be made on a case-by-case basis.

Not every bug you find requires treatment in the first place. Many that are considered to be harmful forms are actually normal flora within limits. Many species are found in the intestinal tract of every snake in small numbers. As long as the immune system is keeping those numbers in check, they cause no problems and do not require treatment. Those include, but are not limited to E.coli, Entamoeba ssp., and certain Coccidians, even Cryptosporidium serpentis. The decision to treat is based on:

1) Numbers (per field) as compared to normal load

2) Clinical symptoms presented

3) General condition of the animal

4) Special considerations regarding species and indicated drugs.

Even in the case of Nematode, Cestode, Pentastome or Trematode parasites, certain levels may be acceptable and not require treatment. All of the drugs used to treat these bugs carry some level of risk to the animal. If the risk of the parasite infestation is less than the risk of the medication, then a decision not to treat would be appropriate. In some cases, depending on the general condition of the animal, even if there is a heavy parasite load present, treatment may not be possible. In severely dehydrated animals, many of the meds used carry a significant risk of nephrotoxicity. In that case, supportive therapy would be needed to improve the condition of the animal before drug therapy could be used.

basically, if the animal comes in half decent looking and puts on apropriate weight then i won't treat it......not necessary. not all 'parasites' are bad. the trend to dose any and everything is wrong and has lasting harmful effects on said subject which will manifest itself in time. it's getting like people who see 3 dandelions in their yard and promptly pump a gallon of POISON into the ground to 'fix' it!!! how stupid is that!?! the best way around the whole ordeal is to acquire cb specimens whenever possible and avoid the entire ordeal.......

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=05/25/2004

Listen to Medical Researcher Peter Daszak
Daszak is the executive director of the Consortium for Conservation Medicine. The program is designed to study the environmental changes brought on by humans and the links between animal, human and ecosystem health. The consortium is interested in finding out how infectious diseases like West Nile virus, malaria and other emerging diseases move between populations, or depend on environmental conditions.

What, if anything, is known about the bacterial requirements of indigos? In other words, what kinds of stuff do they NEED in there gut? Or do they need certain bacteria at all? Like iguanas need salmonela? Or am I wrong there?
Tony.

The interview was very interesting, but as oldheper (which you should change to WISEherper) is very accurate. The lecture really talks about eliminating parasites of those specimens that may be reintroduced back into their habitat. You have to remember that zoo's have many more species of animals then most of the private breeders here. The danger is introducing a different parasite back into a area not native to that parasite.

When I received my indigo the first thing I did was several stool samples. I found giardia and pinworms. The giardia I treated, but was not overly concerned with the pinworms. 3 times a year I sample his stool and the average number of pinworms is less than 1 phf. He is curently in a very low stress environment and I have not introduced any more snakes since his arrival. Like wiseherper said there are a lot of reasons to deworm, but should be on a per snake basis. I would still encourage all to listen and thanks for providing me with the education.
Sincerely,
Roly
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Miami Hurricanes #1
NATIONAL CHAMPS 83,87,89,91,01

I did not listen to the audio(yet), but I find this argument disturbing.

I have a hard time imagining myself taking my daughter to a physician to be told, "her cestode load doesn't appear to be large enough to warrant treatment", unless the treatment caused permanent damage worse than the potentials of the parasite.

But maybe the audio will make sense and I will come back to agree...I realize that several parasitic bacteria live in the human body and that an attempt to eliminate them would be futile and probably do more damage than good, but...worms...leaving them in the animal? What other type of animal husbandry would even consider this?

It's difficult to simplify the argument that much. Certainly any load of cestodes requires treatment IF the animal is in good enough general health to withstand the treatment. With reptiles it is even more difficult, because there is such a wide variance from species to species in tolerance of the drugs. For instance, Ivermectin can be used in many reptiles, but can be deadly in Indigo Snakes, Urocaon Rattlesnakes and certain other species. Also, there is wide variance from species to species in what is normal intestinal flora. Usually (but not always), "worms" would not be considered normal flora. Then there are some worms that can be found in the gut of reptiles that have no effect whatever to the reptile because they are acquired through prey animals. One example is Mouse Pinworms. They are commonly found in the gut of reptiles that are fed live mice and are eliminated along with fecal material. Mouse Pinworms do not affect the reptile and obviously require no treatment.

i think you're scaring people unnecessarily with implications that "prophalactic" worming can be risky and dangerous--I disagree, on the contrary it is much riskier to leave parasites in the animals, but this is based on experience with thousands of imports, so not a very research based argement...my original argument is simplified to show that it is a simple matter-a helminth that is feeding off the host should be eliminated (not talking about intermediate hosts, Ecoli, etc., i speak for general husbandry, not the exceptions.

Herpetoculture would be the only animal husbandry I know of that does not demand regular worming of animals. I have bought, bred and sold quite a few cribos back in the 80's, and in my opinion, flagyling and giving panacur/praziquantel to an imported cribo that had fed on C.A. frogs, rats. mice. other snakes,lizards, birds for all its life should be done without question, a prime candidate for treatment even without an exam.

I wish we could drag some vets or other importers into this, and get their opinions as to whether automatic/undiagnosed worming is a safer practice that leaving the animals alone.

When you are importing large numbers of wild-caught animals, there is little choice. Shotgunning is not the best practice in the world, but sometimes it's all you can do. In the '70's I imported hundreds and hundreds of reptiles from Asia, South America and Africa through a broker. A large number of the snakes were venomous, mostly dangerously so. I shotgunned those imports. I knew, without a doubt, that all of them would have some parasite load, and the ones I did check were living courses in Parasitology. I had no desire to handle them any more than necessary or to do hundreds of individual fecal exams. That, however, is not what I'm talking about...that's a whole 'nother ball game.

When you are talking about bringing one or a few animals into your personal collection, or a Zoological collection that you are in charge of, there is no reason not to do it right.