Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well as any one knows "except the child that runs this country".

This war on terror is a joke. It would, and does only breed MORE TERRORIST. Just as the war on drugs, only made the drug problem worse 10 fold, but Peoples in this administration, know very well these effects.

The attack on Iraq, provided these Religious Psycho a theater in which to engage us on their turf, not to mention the probability of nuts positioned in many countries.

With the pics of coalition soldiers "Torturing and Humiliating" Arab Muslim CIVILIANS, helped to only back the $hit Osama spouts off about how EVIL we are, and gain him more followers.

This Administration can best be summed up in 1 word. Criminal

They have kicked us all in our mental ass while simultaneously snatching money out of our pockets. Sad many dont even care anymore, to caught up in the illusion of manufactured life, living so called "Reality" though the t.v.

~SoBeK~

Read the link

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040526/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida&cid=540&ncid=716

More liberal thinking gone awry!

This is the main problem I see with many liberal arguments. They are usually concerned about what happens in the short term, while conservatives are usually concerned about the long term. The liberals compare what happened yesterday (before a change was made) to today, to see if the change was good or not. This is very flawed. Many changes bring short term benefits and long term costs, or short term costs and long term benefits. Comparing yesterday to today is bogus when trying to figure out if a change was good or not. You must compare "tomorrow" with "yesterday" to see if the change was beneficial or not. After all, it is the long term benefits for everyone's future that is more important, isn't it? It is to me. (Unfortunately, many people don't want to wait a sufficient time, to see the long term effects, to see if change actually was good or not.)

It's kind of like disciplining a child. They may throw a tantrum as soon as you discipline them, but if you don't discipline them, they will be ruined for life. A short term problem (a tantrum) traded for a long term benefit. (Is that why most children of conservatives are so well balanced and behaved, and a far larger percentages of children of liberals are spoiled brats?-Probably!)

In ten, twenty, thirty, or fifty years from now, a conclusion might be able to be made about whether this war reduced or increased terrorism. But to make such a conclusion based on such a short time period is unbelievably foolish. Of course the terrorists will throw a tantrum right now(short term result), when initially confronted. But again, that's liberal thinking for you. No logic and all "feelings".

Rodney

>>They are usually concerned about what happens in the short term, while conservatives are usually concerned about the long term.

Get real man, what a joke. Conservatives have no conception of whats good for the future. Their whole deal is Get now, Stick, and Move. Money Money Money.
Nothing good has came from the Bush administration.

>>In ten, twenty, thirty, or fifty years from now, a conclusion might be able to be made about whether this war reduced or increased terrorism

What are you talking about? You can not be that Blind?

The conclusion can be made now!

The war on terrorism can never be won.

1. we are dealing with a people, that have nothing to loose.

2. We are dealing with a people that have been heavily indoctrinated in extreme religious views, in their minds, to die is to live better, see #1

3.we are dealing with a people that do not, and can not fight a conventional war. Their only option is to use guerrilla tactics to slowly under mind our efforts. This usually is a slow and drawn out process. Preferring to take little bites here and there, to topple their prey, like Parana.

4. You can not just "cut the head off" terrorist organizations. And the word terrorist, its now a umbrella term. It is just being thrown around to label anyone who does not agree with the U.S. , and its policies. A way to engage anyone we want, by just hinting at their affiliation to a group. Example: Iraq War.

I sorry Rodney you can not see what is going on. If you think spending Trillions of dollars on Bombs, and fancy planes, is going to win us this war, your wrong!
There is only one LOGICAL way to destroy a disease like Osama, and groups like him. Thats is from the inside out. The "dance" we are doing in Iraq, has only broke our economy, lost us respect in the international community, Cost countless American & Iraqi lives, and proved that we torture, and humiliate prisoners. It was not a isolated incident, and goes far up the chain of command.

In turn only adding more fuel to Osamas Fire.

Bush has FAILED to make the world a safer place..

~SoBeK~

To better understand why brute force, cannot prevail against guerrilla tactics, I suggest you read.

1. On Guerrilla Warfare, By Mao Tse-tung
2. Guerrilla Warfare, By Che Guevara
3. The Art of War, By Sun-Tzu

The same arguments were made about Japan and Germany.

They were wrong, hopefull this one will be proven wrong also. Maybe it's better to let terrorism thrive, than to try and fight it?--I don't think so.

Rodney

An intelligent government would look beyond the fence to other countries before certain decisions are made.

Israel went the hard way against the Palestinians since the first day of its existence. And what was the outcome? Would you like to life in a land where it's dangerous to get on a bus or eat a pizza in a restaurant.

HERE YOU HAVE THE LONG TERM RESULT OF EXACTLY THE SAME POLICY THE U.S. APPLYING NOW.

Great result, no?

The "Tantrum that you refer to is only the entire
Muslim world up in arms over what has happened and occured in two places:

Israel: Whom we have FUNDED and coddled and maintained a "working" relationship with, even as they kick Palestinians out of their homes and raze them with bulldozers. ISRAEL, whom we have given countless arms too. Israel, who without our support all these years would have perished. Instead they prosper...in total fear. Beleiving they are winning a war against a people that make their daily lives totally unpredictable and can strike at any moment.

Iraq: Aside from the YEARS of sanctions that caused untold misery
(But lets NOT look back at the past eh?) and the current blasphemous war that is being waged by the U.S. governemnt on the CIVILIANS of Iraq. And the selection of "Puppet" heads of state by the U.S.. , who will insure that they have virtually no power, including the power to get the U.S. military to exit IRAQ and let soveriegnity be what it is supposed to be.

So.....we have treated them like"Children"..."Disciplined them for their wrongdoings(In this case being born IRAQI) And now we wait for them to sulk.And sulk they will......

WE have inflamed MUSLIM hatred throughout the world by the acts of arrogant hate that our military personnel have wrought on Iraqi citzens.CIVILIANS...CHILDREN....
We have insured that a new crop of Bin Ladens will be cultivated, nurtured and let loose on an American public that is not expecting this. The same way they didnt expect the atrocities that members of our troops committed (What...MY Johny? ...My ...Jane? there is no way they could have done these things?) Its insane, and many of the young people in this may have no memories of anything other than the bloodshed that We caused, the GRIEF that WE caused and the suffering that We caused. That may be their only reference point for the USA. That this government, that this military, that this COUNTRY...took the lives of their irreplacable FATHERS, MOTHERS, SISTERS, BROTHERS, GRANDPARENTS,UNCLES,FRIENDS, LOVED ONES...

Now....answer me a question. you are an 10 year old boy in a country that has dealt with 10 years of sanctions...and unjust and unecessary war...and an ongoing occupation by a FOREIGN entity. Youve lost one or more of the above people to this war, some have been d, others killed, still others incarcerated for an unknown period of time.

How do you kope with this?
How do you deal with the hate?
How do you deal with the rage?
How do you deal with the memories and visual pictures you cant erase from your mind?

I think that a "tantrum" isnt what thesw would invoke.
And frankly, I am scared, for every US citzen,. when this crop of young people that has experienced our ILLEGAL..IMMORAL..COLONIAL occupation of THEIR country finally comes of age......

And in the wrong hands..

"Support our troops?" Then bring them home. Occupation is not part of their job description.

sincerely,

Fred Albury

been one of the 300 radical Islamic terrorist groups that have sworn to end the American way of life.Way before the war in Iraq.Yeah, fighting back has really pi$$ed them off. We would do better to sit on our hands and not upset them. I'm sure they would leave us alone.
Liberals are liberals, the only way to change one is to have something happen to them. Here is the liberal creed
The Liberals’ Creed
Editorial
May 27, 2004

by: Robert Alt
Kirkuk, Iraq—For all the talk about a widening religiosity gap between the right and the left, sentiment from the left indicates a certain religious fervor about the war in Iraq. A string of recent letters and articles from those of a more liberal persuasion suggest that they choose to ignore or simply do not believe information which is inconsistent with their basic tenets. Theirs is a policy of faith, and here is their creed.

We believe in the United Nations, and Kofi Annan, the maker of international legitimacy.

We believe that the UN inspections worked.
We believe that SCUD missiles fired at U.S. troops minutes after the war began don’t change anything;
We believe that 3 liters of sarin gas used against U.S. troops doesn’t change anything;
We believe that finding evidence of mustard gas doesn’t change anything.

We believe that the war in Iraq conducted by a Republican president was unjustified because it lacked UN approval;
We believe that the "military action" in Kosovo conducted by a Democratic president was justified without UN approval.

We believe that the Iraq war was unilateral.
We believe that the participation of Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Thailand, United Kingdom, and Ukraine does not change the fact that the war was unilateral;
We believe that multilateralism can only be achieved with the participation of France and Germany;
We believe in multilateralism.

We believe that this war was motivated by greed and oil;
We believe that when France, Germany, and Russia opposed the war, they were motivated by principle, and not by sweetheart oil deals or Oil-For-Food kickbacks;
We believe that US oil prices are too high, and that the administration failed in its responsibility to do something about it.

We believe that the U.S. may only legitimately use force for humanitarian ends in one place if it does so in all places where aid might be needed;
We believe that the U.S. may not quell threats in places where the cost is relatively low unless it is willing to use force in places like North Korea, where the cost in lives would likely be very high;
We believe that a humanitarian action is only truly humanitarian if there are no strategic interests to muddle the altruism.

We believe that President Bush lied.
We believe that Prime Minister Blair lied.
We believe that when Hillary Clinton and Dick Gephardt voted for the war based on the same intelligence relied upon by Bush and Blair, they made reasonable decisions based on the intelligence available at the time.

We believe that the administration did not make the case for war;
We believe that the administration offered many different reasons but could not offer a coherent message explaining the need to go to war;
We believe that the administration made perfectly clear that the only reason we were going to war was because of the threat from WMDs.

We believe that there were no WMDs.
We believe that finding sarin gas is 14th page news;
We believe that if the sarin gas is old, then it really isn’t a WMD we were looking for;
We believe that it wasn’t really sarin gas;
We believe that sarin gas isn’t necessarily a WMD.

We believe that there was no terrorist connection to, or threat from, Iraq.
We believe that members of Abu Nidal in Iraq would not have committed terrorist acts if we had not invaded;
We believe that al Qaeda operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi would not have committed terrorist acts if we had not invaded;
We believe that Saddam’s terrorist training camp at Salman Pak—complete with a Boeing 707 plane used for hijacking drills—did not exist or posed no real threat;
We believe that it was merely a coincidence that the pharmaceutical factory bombed by President Clinton in Sudan was using al Qaeda funds and a uniquely Iraqi formula to produce VX gas;
We believe that we are responsible for bringing terror on ourselves.

We believe that the prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib is widespread and is probably the tip of the iceberg;
We believe that Abu Ghraib proves that the America’s occupation is no different than Saddam’s tyranny;
We believe that any attempt to suggest that there is a moral difference between a regime which systematically killed 300,000 people and tortured countless others and a regime which punished the acts of Abu Ghraib is illegitimate.

We believe that soldiers deliberately target women and children;
We believe that the soldiers abuse and kill Iraqis because they are racists;
We support our troops.

We believe that no one should question our statement that we "support our troops;"
We believe that the best thing that could happen for this country would be for Bush to lose in November;
We believe that the best way for Bush to lose in November is for the Iraq effort to go poorly, even if that means that more Iraqis and troops will die;
We believe that most of the troops are minorities and the poor;
We believe that when the word "heroes" is used to describe our troops, it should always be enclosed in scare quotes.

We believe in quagmire.
We believe that when fringe Iraqi groups attack hard targets and are soundly defeated with relatively low Coalition casualties, that this is inescapable evidence of crisis;
We believe that Iraq is Bush’s Vietnam.

We believe that Vietnam is the lens through which all wars should be viewed.
We believe that soldiers in Vietnam were baby killers;
We believe that John Kerry is a hero for his service in Vietnam.

We believe that because John Kerry is a hero, he necessarily has the national security expertise necessary to be commander-in-chief.
We believe that any attempt to question his national security expertise based on his voting record, including his decision to vote against a supplemental bill used to buy the soldiers body armor, is an unfair attack on the patriotism of a hero, who by virtue of this honorific has the expertise to be commander-in-chief.

We believe in the trinity: NPR, CNN, and the New York Times. We believe in Ted Kennedy, Tom Harkin, John Kerry, and all the DNC, and we look for President Clinton yet to come. Amen.

Robert D. Alt is a Fellow in Legal and International Affairs at The John M. Ashbrook Center for Public Affairs at Ashland University currently reporting from Iraq. You can follow his daily progress at No Left Turns.

Liberals are liberals, there is no fixing them, here is your creed
The Liberals’ Creed
Editorial
May 27, 2004
by: Robert Alt
Kirkuk, Iraq—For all the talk about a widening religiosity gap between the right and the left, sentiment from the left indicates a certain religious fervor about the war in Iraq. A string of recent letters and articles from those of a more liberal persuasion suggest that they choose to ignore or simply do not believe information which is inconsistent with their basic tenets. Theirs is a policy of faith, and here is their creed.

We believe in the United Nations, and Kofi Annan, the maker of international legitimacy.

We believe that the UN inspections worked.
We believe that SCUD missiles fired at U.S. troops minutes after the war began don’t change anything;
We believe that 3 liters of sarin gas used against U.S. troops doesn’t change anything;
We believe that finding evidence of mustard gas doesn’t change anything.

We believe that the war in Iraq conducted by a Republican president was unjustified because it lacked UN approval;
We believe that the "military action" in Kosovo conducted by a Democratic president was justified without UN approval.

We believe that the Iraq war was unilateral.
We believe that the participation of Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Thailand, United Kingdom, and Ukraine does not change the fact that the war was unilateral;
We believe that multilateralism can only be achieved with the participation of France and Germany;
We believe in multilateralism.

We believe that this war was motivated by greed and oil;
We believe that when France, Germany, and Russia opposed the war, they were motivated by principle, and not by sweetheart oil deals or Oil-For-Food kickbacks;
We believe that US oil prices are too high, and that the administration failed in its responsibility to do something about it.

We believe that the U.S. may only legitimately use force for humanitarian ends in one place if it does so in all places where aid might be needed;
We believe that the U.S. may not quell threats in places where the cost is relatively low unless it is willing to use force in places like North Korea, where the cost in lives would likely be very high;
We believe that a humanitarian action is only truly humanitarian if there are no strategic interests to muddle the altruism.

We believe that President Bush lied.
We believe that Prime Minister Blair lied.
We believe that when Hillary Clinton and Dick Gephardt voted for the war based on the same intelligence relied upon by Bush and Blair, they made reasonable decisions based on the intelligence available at the time.

We believe that the administration did not make the case for war;
We believe that the administration offered many different reasons but could not offer a coherent message explaining the need to go to war;
We believe that the administration made perfectly clear that the only reason we were going to war was because of the threat from WMDs.

We believe that there were no WMDs.
We believe that finding sarin gas is 14th page news;
We believe that if the sarin gas is old, then it really isn’t a WMD we were looking for;
We believe that it wasn’t really sarin gas;
We believe that sarin gas isn’t necessarily a WMD.

We believe that there was no terrorist connection to, or threat from, Iraq.
We believe that members of Abu Nidal in Iraq would not have committed terrorist acts if we had not invaded;
We believe that al Qaeda operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi would not have committed terrorist acts if we had not invaded;
We believe that Saddam’s terrorist training camp at Salman Pak—complete with a Boeing 707 plane used for hijacking drills—did not exist or posed no real threat;
We believe that it was merely a coincidence that the pharmaceutical factory bombed by President Clinton in Sudan was using al Qaeda funds and a uniquely Iraqi formula to produce VX gas;
We believe that we are responsible for bringing terror on ourselves.

We believe that the prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib is widespread and is probably the tip of the iceberg;
We believe that Abu Ghraib proves that the America’s occupation is no different than Saddam’s tyranny;
We believe that any attempt to suggest that there is a moral difference between a regime which systematically killed 300,000 people and tortured countless others and a regime which punished the acts of Abu Ghraib is illegitimate.

We believe that soldiers deliberately target women and children;
We believe that the soldiers abuse and kill Iraqis because they are racists;
We support our troops.

We believe that no one should question our statement that we "support our troops;"
We believe that the best thing that could happen for this country would be for Bush to lose in November;
We believe that the best way for Bush to lose in November is for the Iraq effort to go poorly, even if that means that more Iraqis and troops will die;
We believe that most of the troops are minorities and the poor;
We believe that when the word "heroes" is used to describe our troops, it should always be enclosed in scare quotes.

We believe in quagmire.
We believe that when fringe Iraqi groups attack hard targets and are soundly defeated with relatively low Coalition casualties, that this is inescapable evidence of crisis;
We believe that Iraq is Bush’s Vietnam.

We believe that Vietnam is the lens through which all wars should be viewed.
We believe that soldiers in Vietnam were baby killers;
We believe that John Kerry is a hero for his service in Vietnam.

We believe that because John Kerry is a hero, he necessarily has the national security expertise necessary to be commander-in-chief.
We believe that any attempt to question his national security expertise based on his voting record, including his decision to vote against a supplemental bill used to buy the soldiers body armor, is an unfair attack on the patriotism of a hero, who by virtue of this honorific has the expertise to be commander-in-chief.

We believe in the trinity: NPR, CNN, and the New York Times. We believe in Ted Kennedy, Tom Harkin, John Kerry, and all the DNC, and we look for President Clinton yet to come. Amen.

Robert D. Alt is a Fellow in Legal and International Affairs at The John M. Ashbrook Center for Public Affairs at Ashland University currently reporting from Iraq. You can follow his daily progress at No Left Turns.

Israel went the hard way against the Palestinians since the first day of its existence

The only thing Israel could have done "more easily" to placate the Palestinians would be to not exist! And the Israelis have been extremely reserved in their response to Palestinian terrorism. The Israelis could have targeted/attacked civilians, like the Palestinians do, but they didn't. The Palestinians throw everything they have at the Israelis, but the Israelis throw very little of their military power back, and they do so at just their attackers and their attacker's leaders.

Can Israeli citizens walk safely in Palestinian territory? Nope! Can Palestinians walk safely in Israel? Yes, many do so every day! If that doesn't tell you something about terrorism vs. the civilized world, nothing will.

Rodney

Lightbulb! :

Palestinians CANNOT walk easily in ISRAEL. NO ONE CAN, unless they just think that Israel displacing Palesitnians from their homes so thjat they can build more settlements doesnt come with an equal but horrific price.

Idea: Bombs dont discriminate between Palestinians and Israels...EVERYONE gets blown up. Go to israel to live and tell me how you feel while you are sipping you mocha latte at the local bistro or coffee shop. Enjoy it...it may be your last...no matter what race you happen to be.

More proof that Israels heavy handed tactics and occupation of Palestinian land has not resulted in security for it or any of its citzenry.. But since it doesnt work...why! lets just KEEP ON DOING IT!!

(This is Bushs favorite method of politicking..actually Cheneys, because he is the Daddy..)

Rock the vote

Fredrick Albury

P.S.

Right of return for Palestinians that have been evicted from their homes and communities due to this occupation and genocide is a must.....