Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got theese pictures yesterday. This is the first baby pictures I have seen. I bought this pair from a local guy who had no Idea what he had until I posted some pictures here, then CE was nice enough to tell me what he thought they were and he nailed it on the head (thanks Charles).

Male (before the nasty scar)

Pacific Constrictors

Female

Pacific Constrictors

Here is a map of most of south America, as you can see the Amazon river does not flow in or near Suriname. And, though not clearly shown here, the border between Suriname and Brazil is a highland area which precludes Suriname being in the basin of the Amazon river. Major rivers in Suriname flow mostly northwards.

Those interesting boas may be all or part Suriname or they may be some kind of so-called Basin boa, but I think it is incorrect to call them Amazon Surinames.

Good luck with that,

-----
Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I really think they are Brazilian or that there mother may have been captured in brazil or had crossed the border into Suriname but when she gave birth they were sent the the US from Suriname. The name Amazon Basin was a title that was tacked on them when I bought them and has kind of stuck around since. Everyone else just calls them Surinams

I've had this arguement with Charles and Kemper before,.. Suriname is simply outside the amazon basin region...

They're either Brazilian (basin region), or Suriname, can't be both if you look at a map.

That being said,... it detracts absolutley nothing from that amazing group of contrasty animals.
-----

recycle your pets

Thank you for posting that. I have always wondered where the basin in Suriname was since seeing several people mis-labeling their animals as such. Thanks for clearing that up.

On the topic of red-tails... How are you looking on Belems this year? I would love to get an unrelated pair, if possible. Furthermore, I was also hoping to grab an adult male Caulker Cay that is comparable to my large female. She is high contrast w/no color (I swore last year they were type 2s). After, speaking with Doug at length about them, he finally made it clear that they were definately Belize boas.
TIA, Ray
-----
Quit? Never will I ever... forever 'til the end. Always keep on moving... never stop my friend.

The Amazon forest covers a total area of 7,584,331 square kilometres. If you make a quick search on say Google you will also find the following info:

Brasil 4.982.000
Perú 956.751
Bolivia 824.000
Colombia 406.000
Surinam 142.800
Ecuador 123.000
Guyana Francesa 91.000
Venezuela 53.000
Guyana 5.780

I think the problem here may be the definition of "basin." But to say that Surinam has no Amazonian forest is totally inaccurate. To also say that a boa is from a certain area based soley on a photograph is also inaccurate.

Unfortunately, herpetoculturists sometimes make broad assumptions and certain terms are tossed around far too easily. It happens alot on this forum for example. In this particular example one has to take into account alot more than river drainage patterns. There are always grey areas when one tries to classify certain forest types for example, but rest assured, the "Amazonian Surinam" exists. Not necessarily in that particular photo, but it exists.

I appreciate common names will always be applied in such cases. It helps us classify organisms at the most basic level. Take "Guyanan shield" / "Amazonian" Emeralds for example. BUT...remember, common names are, by definition, common names - those intended to be used by the average guy in the street. They help us understand something more about an animal than may otherwise be understood. Take the rainbows for example: "Colombian" rainbows > E.c.maurus....they lead the "average" guy to believe this subspecies only occurs in Colombia, which is of course innacurate. Political boundaries are understood only by (the majority of) humans, but not other animals / plants. For example, who told the E.c.cenchria in Leticia that "he" is a Brazilian rainbow boa, and shouldn't be in Colombia?

Anyway, I digress, and it's late. However, my point is that caution should always be exercised when applying common names to animals. And also, one only knows the origin of a particular animal / plant when the EXACT collection locality is known. For 99% of the time, this usually means you have collected the animal / plant yourself!

...oh, and that Surinam does have some "Amazonian" forest!

The point in the discussion is whether or not Boas in Suriname share close characteristics with those in the drainage of the Amazon river.. if Suriname was closely linked geologically with the Amazon basin, allowing easy and frequent exchange of genetics, that would make it easier to say YES they are.. but it is not.

I think the term Amazon Forest as used is about the nature of the forest, plant families, rainfall amounts and patterns and has little to do with terrestrial vertebrate fauna. As an example of what I'm saying, similar remnants of northern Boreal forest exist in Chihuahua, Mexico and in Arizona, a short distance away. Both have kingsnake populations, but they do not readily exchange genetics, nobody confuses them, mistakes one for the other or denies the differences.

.. If we had as much good information on the origins of boas as we do on the pyromelana we would likely see this argument go away very quickly.. But just because we have little real info about the differences in these boas and where the differences occur on the map doesn't mean they are all the same.

Gus

Well, in your initial post you clearly mentioned that the "Amazonian Surinam" does NOT exist. I simply think this is misleading, and incorrect. I absolutely agree that the Surinam populations may be separated from the North Brazilian population by a physical barrier. I just think that how common names are thrown around here is misleading, and can do more harm than good (my MAJOR gripe is the "Leticia" boa, and I've been through this before here!). Whilst I agree that we will always coin a term to identify an animal, that afterall is the basis of classification, it doesn't always mean there is a black and white to the situation.

I know that were we sat down together this exchange wouldn't have happened, we are clearly thinking along similar lines. I know where you are coming from, and agree that the name "Amazonian Surinam" is perhaps not the best choice for that particular boa. But then I'd prefer to see E.c.cenchria called Amazonian Rainbows! I guess the best thing is that a common name can give the most information about any particular animal / plant. Not easy in a couple of words!

Anyway, have a good day

Anyway

You wrote:

Posted by: herpconsultants2 at Thu May 27 04:33:57 2004 

Well, in your initial post you clearly mentioned that the "Amazonian Surinam" does NOT exist"..

Please point out where I wrote that, I don't see it..

Friend, wriite or claim anything you like but when you quote me stick to things that I have written or said..

Thanks for your help and input!

Gus

Friend...you wrote "Those interesting boas may be all or part Suriname or they may be some kind of so-called Basin boa, but I think it is incorrect to call them Amazon Surinames." Does this not infer that the Surinam Amazon does not exist? But anyway, thanks, you have reminded me why I rarely write anything on this forum. Why, because there are so many here that don't like it when their words are challenged, within this, an adult forum.

Like I said, were we sat around a table I'm sure we could have a great discussion. It's a shame you seem to be leading towards a condescending tone.

I'm sorry, your words are misleading, but hey, who am I to say. I simply have my opinion. But thanks for your input.

Noone evermentioned the amazon rainforest but you. When it was said they shouldnt be called Amazon Surinames, had you been reading along with the rest of us, you could easily see or read that as Amazon Basin[ Surinames... since thats what we've talking about all along.
-----

recycle your pets

.. get the last word in this discussion, inexplicably turned argument.

Friend, your last reply is not very friendly!

Be safe,

Gus

But a basin is a geographic recession the ground around a river.
Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, and some of Venezuela sit on the Guyana Highlands, an ELEVATED region above, and north of the boundaries of the basin.

The boundaries of the basin, the delta and the forest are all independant as they are not the same things.

sean
-----

recycle your pets