Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I work in the reptile department of a pet store. We have always had good results with our horsefieldii until now. We recieved an order of three tortoises a little over a month ago. They were treated with panacur a few days after we recieved them and then again two weeks later. They are being kept on a calcium carbonate sand and are provided with clean water, shelter and calcium supplimented veggies daily. UV-B lighting is provided.

On Saturday I opened reptile to find that one of our tortoises was clearly unhealthy. Symptoms: swollen mouth, discharge from mouth, runny eyes (possibly just discharge from mouth on the eyes), sunken eyes, one eye stuck shut and very little movement even when soaked in water . I removed the tortoise and placed it in our reptile isolation where it died the next day. There was no wheezing or bubbles from the nose that I saw. The reptile manager opened Thursday and she assured me that on Thursday morning the tortoises had no discharge from the mouth and looked healthy and active while being soaked. Do any of the symptoms sound like a common problem? Anything come to mind? Anything that you would recomend we do with the other two? Any advice at all?

Both the reptile manager and I are really stumped on this one. We haven't had this happen with a Russian before and it caught us off guard. Any insight is appriciated, thanks for your time
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
0.0.4 Dendrobates galactonotus 'Red'
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
0.1.4 Mantella madagascariensis
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.1 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

Without actually seeing the animal it is tough to say for sure but Russians are notorious for carrying the Herpes virus. The way you describe the tortoise sounds exactly like the virus. There is not much you can do once the other tortoises have been exposed.
The symptoms you described are classic.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Not that this would have made a diff with that one or the others if Ed is right( I agree with him), but you said "Veggies". What are you feeding exactly. I would recommend no or very little Veggies, and mostly greens and weeds (dandy lions). Good luck!
Also I appluad you for wanting to get help!

Thanks for the help guys. I had never heard of herpes in tortoises. I did a little research online, it's really scary stuff. It seems like it is always fatal from what I read. I really hope it's something other than that so that the other two pull through. I printed some information out for the manager and hopefully next Thursday when the vet is in we can have them look at the two tortoises.

We feed our tortoises the same mix of veggies that we feed the rest of the reptiles. Pet stores are temporary housing for reptiles and we try to do what is best for our reptiles but it wouldn't be practical for us to chop individual salads for each and every reptile we have. Our mix usually consisits of mostly dark greens and lettuces with some root vegetables like carrots or sweet potato mixed in. Occasionally we run out and have to offer frozen veggies for a day or two. It's not ideal but if they are supplimented well it works for the month or two they are with us. We feed this mix to our tortoises, bearded dragons, uromastyx and whatever other herbivores or omnivores that we have in stock. Thanks again for the help, we really appriciate it
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Devin Edmonds
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com

Don't look into it too much... you'll never want to own a tortoise again.
As it turns out they don't know a whole lot about the Herpes virus. There is some line of though that many many tortoises are carriers and it is not fatal unless the tortoise is stressed. It seems that they can live with it for years if not their entire natural live without a problem.
The only way you can be safe is not to mix anything with these animals IF that is what the tortoise had. If you are talking WC animals it is a moot point because most have been mixed to begin with.
As to the feeding, an easy solution is to feed what is called 'Spring Mix' which is a prepackaged salad that has a good mix of greens. Another food that I like to feed on occasion is Mazuri Tortoise Diet by Purina. That with mixed greens is a fantastic diet and is quite convenient.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed--Do you remove the spinach often found in these mixes (at least the ones I use), or do you consider it to be a non-problem? Tnx.

For the baby tortoises who produce concentrated urates I remove it. For tortoises like RFs and Leopards and Aldabras I don't worry about it. There would be a concern if the tortoise keyed onto the spinach and only that but, as with anything else, as part of a varied diet I don't think it is a problem.
Concentrated urate producing tortoises would be Sulcatas, Egyptians, DTs and Stars.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

One last thing... unless you've seen this already. This is one of the better on line articles.
http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/TortoiseHerpesvirus/Pages/THerp.html
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed,

I printed out this thread of posts and the article at http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/herpes.html and gave it to my manager yesterday. She said that it's impossible to make a correct diagnosis online without a little luck but the herpes virus affecting tortoises was something she had never heard of and was eager to look into. I think I'll print out the other article as well although I think the larger words are a little intimidating, I keep running over to dictionary.com to look them up. Thanks again, you've been a great help and both the reptile manager and I appriciate it.
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Devin Edmonds
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com

I have had some very good results treating my STAR tortoises' colds and severe runny nose attacks with human antibiotic drops for nose and ears! The drops we can buy at any drugstore for ear or eyes infections. I spray those drops inside the sick tortoise nostrils several (3or 4)times a day and all the symptoms disappear overnight!But only to be sure i continue the treatment for one day or two.

Yes, tortoises are very prone to have runny nose, cold or pneumonia attacks and to die overnight because they cant breath.Next time you try those drops as soon as you see the symptoms. If you want i can give you the name of the drops i use.

Flavia

np

I don't know of any antibiotic drops for human use that you can buy over the counter here, but they are available overseas--in South America, for sure, maybe in Asia, too.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

There is no eye and ear drops that contains Garamicyn to be sold in the drugstores in the US?They are great too.

I can check, but I don't think so. They're really strict here. You have access to a lot more than we do. I lived in Brazil briefly almost 30 years ago and it was amazing what we could get at the pharmacy.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

i don't know exactly what's in these but so sad to see drugs manufacturers dump their stuffs elsewhere after being banned by the Government in this country (USA), remember how long it took them to rids of stuffs containing MERCURY?

... and the numbers of lives that lost... human lives that is...many of them are babies!!!!