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Well at one point FWC's were up in the air on weather you could keep them without a permit. Finally Fish and Game has put them on the venomous list. Before this you could go into a pet store and buy one. Vines have also been put on this list. I wonder if they will go all out and switch hog nose over as well if vines are on the list. Who knows just some thoughts,
John
I doubt it on the hognose. First: because they are native, so the control issue is not there. Second: because effort is spent here to teach the undereducated that these are harmless (listing them would send a confusing signal). Third: All hognose species (besides those occuring in Florida) would have to be listed and they are so abundantly caught/sold here that finding all of them to license would be impossible. But most importantly, there is no evidence of anyone ever recieving a serious envenomation is there is no need.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
>Vines have also been put on this list.
Do you mean the Ahaetulla genus? From our research, I don't believe this is warranted. Any good contacts? I'd be happy to offer an assessment of the relative danger (which for the vast majority of 'colubrids' is negligable). Off the top of my jet-lagged head, genera I'd include as properly venomous include:
Colubrinae - Dispholidus, Thelatornis. Thrasops is suspect. We have a paper coming out showing that Boiga are incredibly toxic (as are other Colubrinae). However, I wouldn't consider them as in the same class as Rhabdophis for example. Rather, there should be a venomous-lite category. Where such snakes as Boiga are in; a happy place inbetween ball python and viper.
Homalopsinae - none except very large Enhydris are typically likely to cause notable symptoms.
Natricinae - Macropisthodon, Rhabdophis
Psammophiinae - Malpolon, Psammophis, Rhamphiophis
Pseudoxyrhophiinae - Madagascarophis is suspect.
Xenodontinae - Phalotris, Philodryas. Liophis is suspect (the venom glands are bloody massive). Hydrodynastes is a tough one. While they don't produce huge amounts of venom and its not terribly toxic, they are just so bloody big and with a feeding response that is phenomenal. I'd not consider them as truly venomous but certainly as 'warmish'.
Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne
Unfortunatly a ex-employee of a local petshop...back in the 80's decided to get even with his employer by informing Fish and game that the Boiga species and Ahaetulla that he was selling were venemous. Both species have ben illegal (without permit) since.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
What is the criterion that they use? these snakes shouldn't be on the same list as a Daboia russelii. Thats pretty ridiculous. In light of the growing popularly of 'warm herping', perhaps a 'venomous-lite' permit should be brought in? Time spent with this permit could count towards getting the full venomous permit. In Oz we have a three tiered scale for venomous, people can't just start with a taipan!
Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne
What criterion? Basicly, if Game and Fish recognises a snake as venomous then it goes on the list. There is some flexibility for things like hognoses and ringnecks because they are local and not considered dangerous. Also some like the Diadem racers and Madagascar Hogs seem to slip through the cracks
But for the more uncommonly seen species, what they don't know is not enforced.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
wouldnt blandings tree snake i think the latin name is boiga blandii be able to do some damge do to it be so massave?
Dr. Fry,
Just out of curiosity....could you please list a sampling of the genera from each tier of the scale for OZ venomous keeping? Sounds like an outstanding idea for something in the states, albeit definitely hard to get started and enforce. Not too long ago a minor was bitten by an Atheris (can't remember exact sp.) within like 30 mins of where I live. Not surprisingly it was his first venomous snake.
Also I've noticed that you've listed Macropisthodon as definitely something you would consider venomous. I remember a while back when that impressive fang shot of the M. flaviceps was posted, several people commented that although closely related to Rhabdophis the huge fangs may just be related to diet and not be indicative of potent venom. Have you taken a look at their venom? If so what species? I'm very interested in anything pertaining to this genus of snakes.
Lastly, just curious as to what species of Liophis you've looked at? I remember a few years ago I saw Liophis poecilogyrus (the dark dorsal yellow ventral ssp.) for sale. Awesome looking snakes. Thanks a lot.
Regards,
Wes
>>Dr. Fry,
>>
>>Just out of curiosity....could you please list a sampling of the genera from each tier of the scale for OZ venomous keeping?
The oz colubrids are fairly thin on the ground, with only a handful of species here. The Homalopsinae are represented by Cerberus, Enhydris, Fordonia and Myron, none of which are medically important. The Colubrinae include Boiga, Dendrolaphis, Stegonotus, yet again not medically important. The Natricinae forms are Amphiesma and Tropidonophis.
>>
>>Also I've noticed that you've listed Macropisthodon as definitely something you would consider venomous. I remember a while back when that impressive fang shot of the M. flaviceps was posted, several people commented that although closely related to Rhabdophis the huge fangs may just be related to diet and not be indicative of potent venom. Have you taken a look at their venom? If so what species? I'm very interested in anything pertaining to this genus of snakes.
The use of fangs to puncture toads is a ludicrous idea (as anyone who has ever stabbed a cane toad with a snake hook knows, this doesn't do squat). We will be looking at the venom gland of this genus to compare it to Rhabdophis in order to start gleaning information as to whether the Rhabdophis antivenom works.
>>
>>Lastly, just curious as to what species of Liophis you've looked at? I remember a few years ago I saw Liophis poecilogyrus (the dark dorsal yellow ventral ssp.) for sale. Awesome looking snakes.
Thats exactly the species we are working on. Huge venom glands.
Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne
Actually you can't rule out the use of fangs in toad feeding. Our own Eastern Hognose has specific teeth designed to do that. The object is not to kill, but to deflate a toad that is full of air and too bloated to eat.
Actually it is quite practical...
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
The American hognosed teeth have long been explained away as toad puncturers by those who couldn't concieve of the snakes actually having venom (in the same breath, any bite symptoms were explained as the result of toad toxins still being in the mouth!). The teeth for the hognosed are for venom delivery, not toad punturing. Fangs tucked way back in the back of the mouth wouldn't be terribly useful for deflating a toad but would be useable for venom delivery. There has never been a shred of evidence produced in regards to puncturing while venom delivering has been observed (as well as the presense of venom confirmed).
Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne
Actually Bryan...Having observed the phenomina many times at home I will have to politely disagree.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
No worries mate. I'll stay with the venom delivery camp, you with the toad popers but together we can still say that those no-necked little buggers certainly are cute little snakes 
Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne
So much charm in such a small package!
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
The reason I brought this up is due to a local store that has stopped selling Vines as well as FWC's. Fish and Game let them know they are no longer allowed to do so after years of being able to. They sell as well as conduct a venomous class so Fish and Game pop in once in awhile. I was just curious on what everyone thought. Thanks for the info you've supplied. The vines I was talking about are just the normal commonly imported ones. Not the african ones. I believe they are indo vines. Anyways thanks again,
John
P.S. I'll soon have my venomous permit!
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