Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Could some one tell me which Texas hunting permit I need to get { I am from out of state } that will keep me legal wile I look for snakes and whear do I get one. Also any tips that anyone may have that will help to keep Fish and Wildlife or Tx. dept of whatever at bay would be most helpfull .Thank you very much . Catmanhu

You will need a Texas Hunting License to take any animals.

As for "Keeping TP&W" off your back that can vary greatly depending on where you are collecting. Enforcement of collecting reptiles from a vehicle is inconsistent at best. And out of state people catch the worst of it because they are less likely to take it court.

If you want to guarantee that you will not be ticketed do this:

Have your valid TX hunting license and picture ID on you at all times. Walk the cuts using a good light like the Safe-T-Light Stubby II on a 12-volt gel-cell or similar. Stay off any and all park roads or private property.

People do road collect and spotlight with success, but you will be doing so at the risk of a citation.

Good Luck.

I just went to Comstock and Big Bend last week from out of state. The Texas Hunting License I had to get was the small game non-resident license ($125.00) good for three months. They have a 5 day special license for $45 if you are going on a short trip.

Spotlighting from your car will get you in trouble and makes all of us get looked down upon. Game wardens were very active on the western part of our trip, very friendly when they stopped us, and gracious about sharing what was OK and what wasn't.

We were told by the Brewster County Game Warden face to face that you can not hunt in Big Bend State Park On or off of the road. He was very clear about this. NO road hunting the River Road in the State park. National Park is also still a total no-no.

County sheriffs were also stopping us and checking hunting licenses. They were equally friendly and polite about doing there job.

Good luck with your trip!

It his Hwy 170 with a state maintained right of way not owned by Texas Parks and Wildlife. I have collected it many times in the past and even had success walking the stone wall on the big hill one year.

BTW, I received a citation in 1994 (5 counts) for hunting on a public roadway with a motor vehicle on that very road. They did not even pursue the idea that it was part of some protected area. All five counts ended up thrown out because I took the time to fight it past the JP level. But if you are not willing to fight it or face the possibility of losing then do not road collect.

Also a friend of mine was cited on that road last year for no hunting license and had to release a couple of animals. They never told him the area was off limits.

I guess TP&W treats out of state collectors differently than us locals?

This is also my understanding as well. Do you have court cases on the 4 times you beat this citation in court? It seems to me that after beating one citation, anymore then that would be harassment. I plan on hunting it, they can count on that. They can also count on me fighting it in court if they should decide to stop and harass me with a citation. It would just give me another reason to run to Texas and do some more herping LOL.

Brad

My cases were thrown out, not tried in court so there is no precedent. However I do have a ton of data on the whole case. One thing I hate to see is a state official bullying out of state collectors from that road. It is a public highway no different than hwy 90 or hwy 277 etc... I am not aware of any legislation that makes a distinction of one public road having a different standard because it next to a protected area instead of being next to private property.

I am in the DFW area and would try to make time for anybody that wants to look at or copy the records I have.

I dream of the day that we will see consistent enforcement in all counties that are in line with our courts decisions of what the law is intended to do. But I know better than to hold my breath that long.

The game warden that is telling everyone this is Spears. He is a REALLY nice guy and likes snake hunters. He is, however, absolutely wrong about what he is telling us. His version is that anything that crawls out of the park and onto the river road is still a protected park animal. I called the state office as soon as I heard this. I talked to Officer Turner in LE and he said that unless that road was designated and named as a "Park Road", it was a state highway and falls under the same guidelines as any other roadway in Texas. In other words, you are allowed to hunt it just as you are allowed to hunt any other roadway. I will be calling his supervisor Tuesday to see if we can get him to comply with this and enforece actual laws instead of making them up. I suspect the locals are just trying to slow down our efforts.

YES ! Please duckman57 if this is in your power to speak to someone about this guy please do this for all of us that come from way out of state buy our permits spend our $$$ in the fine state of Tx. for this and all your help I say thank you . I for one wait all year for these few weeks in the spring and it is just such a drag to have to deal with someone like this.
Maybe I'll see you out thair. I will be on The" River Road" starting on Tuesday or Wedsday I have a white Surbru with a deer skull with antlers. Catmanhu

You can call Austin, talk to the right person and find that you can collect in the state park and then find that the warden that you just pissed off has decided to enforce the road crusing laws. Which is the lesser of two evils???

Never had the pleasure to talk to him, but if you would like I guess I could call his office and rectify that.

Lance

Thanks for the info and that is nice gesture on your part. What would be cool is if you got a wild hair some day and decided to make a little website out of the data you have collected thus far. That way, everyone would have easy access to the information. Of course, it's hard enough trying to find time to herp so using up time for that kind of junk is like pulling teeth (at least for me).

Thanks again,

Brad

Careful what you wish for!!!

I am not aware of any legislation that makes a distinction of one public road having a different standard because it next to a protected area instead of being next to private property.

Lance,

The ticket I received (in south Texas) was given in spite of the fact that I was on a county (public) road. The road was next to a National Wildlife Refuge. According to the officer (FWS in this case) the road was actually on a right of way in the refuge so refuge laws applied to the road itself as the road is on refuge property.

I know there have been different interpretations given by different LE officials, but I think the same logic could apply to the those regions of the River Road. If the road is legally a right of way through a state park/protected area, state park regs would apply on that road. I suspect anyone ticketed would have a difficult time trying to argue against the charge that they were collecting on the protected land.

Anyone care to go to the Brewster county land/tax assessor's office and see if they list that particular band of property as a right-of-way?
-----
Chris Harrison

county.The Brewster county offices said is WAS a public road according to them when my friend bought property in Studdy Butte. And the road was public domain since it went from points A to B ( towns ) and so many feet of easment was public domain. But that was Brewster county views.

Chambo

You are correct sir! They do treat out of staters VERY differently than state residents. This was verified 2 years ago when I spoke with the warden Robert Garcia on the River Road. They will screw with you if you have out of state license plates.

Wayne H.

Not necessarily, HKM and I talked to a warden on Peppers Hill, HKM is From Az. and I am from Tex., we were both treated with respect and and courtesy. We were only checked for hunting license and told that road collecting in a responsible manner was ok(do not leave your car stopped in the middle of the road with the door open), walking with a light is ok with a hunting license. Any type of hunting in a state park, nat. park, or wildlife managment area such as Big Ranch State Park or Black Gap Wildlife Managment Area will result in a citation.Do not come back and give me crap cause I am only telling you what the warden told us. If you want to collect these areas then ROCK ON, But plan on getting an attorney or fighting it yourself if this warden catches you.
I doubt if this is consistant with other areas in Tex. but this is how it is in Brewster Co. and Presidio Co. according to one TP&W warden.

Nobody has received a citation to fight. They make that threat so that you will leave the area. It is a small victory to them when they run somebody off that they for whatever reason do not approve of.

If I am wrong about this I would like to know, but I know many people other than myself that have been cited in those areas. And I seem to recall an incident with an individual that hiked up side of the big hill (which is clearly in the Natural Area) who received a trespassing citation, but not one for hunting even then.

I am not worried about it, they had their golden opportunity to try with me but passed it up. All these warnings just do not carry any weight to me. But if you wish to avoid collecting in those areas that is something I can respect as well. I am not going to bash you for it.

I guess I misunderstod. I thought some of the posts I read talked about fighting such things in court and charges being dismissed. BUT as I said, I AM ONLY REPEATING WHAT I WAS TOLD BY ONE WARDDEN.

But I believe he has grossly miss-informed you. He may be doing what his superiors are telling him to. But the fact is until that road is renamed from FM170 to Park Road something or the other, it is not part of any park.

I am thinking about trying to call him up on this. If his supervisor is asking him to harass collectors that is something that has to end. The number for Big Bend Ranch State Park is listed, so why not? I am sure they can track Spears down...

The point I am trying to make is, it is illegal to road cruise anywhere, park or no park. Would you prefer he enforce that law or let us road cruise outside the park and maybe just photograph herps in the park, from the road, OR we can all walk around with our light and spot the cuts, fighting the bugs and other collectors.

Let me leave you with one of my own. You have given an example of the inconsistent enforcement of the law that is part of what I have a problem with. I also have seen in my own experience that this law is to vague in the opinion of the courts for this type of enforcement. More than likely if you get a citation and appeal above the JP level it will simply be thrown out.

You have based what you wish to do on trying to stay under the radar of some individuals in law enforcement. I on the other hand would rather take them on in court over this if I had to.

Funny story, the year after I got “busted” on RockCut I was in the Davis Mountains trying to collect and was stopped by the Game Warden there. I wish I could remember his name, but back to the story… He checked my license and then said to me he had heard my name before but could not place me. So I told him I was arrested in last years sting operation. He then gave my license back and said “I had nothing to do with that” then got back in his truck and left.

That is a funny story, sad, but funny. It just goes to show ya.............

Thanks for all the experience you have shared here on the forum.

Take care,

Brad Alexander

By Texas Law, you do not have to show your Texas Hunting license to any authority other than a Texas Game Warden. Remember this!!!!

Wayne H.

Maybe so on only the game warden HAS to see your permit/license,but try getting stopped ,say on 385 at 2:00am by the DS and when he ask you to see your permit/license you tell him that he needs to wake up the local game warden. As I was told on this" ya think that our local might be a little pissed if he has to get up and drive down here at 2 in the morn.?" Now I don't know if this is true but the Deputy Sheriff said he could hold us till the GW got there as well.

Chambo

What a lot of interesting and different information my little post has spurned!! Please remember, I am only repeating EXACTLY what Game Warden Spears told Saddleman and myself at about 3 am on Peppers Hill last week. I am not saying he is correct or otherwise, but, he made it very clear his understanding is you can't hunt the River Road in Big Bend State Park and he would enforce that while down there.

He was a great guy, extremely friendly, very welcoming to myself as an out of stater (I don't think he knew I lived in Terlingua before moving to AZ) and to Saddleman who lives in TX. He was a pleasure to talk to. He also apologized for slowing down our hunt and wished us great success.

After all of the crap and attitude I have seen over the years I found him a total refreshing experience. Ditto for the local deputy who stopped. He was totally cool and friendly.

I wish you all good luck this year (we had a great trip!!!) and stay safe. Cheers. Hugh

you need an out-of -state hunting license as well as a non game Collecting permit to be safe. Believe me, .........I know.

Wayne H.

Two things Wayne, 1. can you tell me where in the regs it says I only have to show my hunting license to game and fish? and 2. You need both a collecting permit and hunting license? Is this correct? How can I obtain the collecting permit?

Thanks for any help/answers you can provide.

Brad

Hey guys...let me clear up this permit thing for all of you. I called TP&W on Friday of this week because I've been collecting here for thirty years and never had anything other than my state issued general hunting license. A local told me I had to have BOTH. Walmart sells the general hunting license and the non game permit. To collect non game(reptiles) in Texas regardless of whether you are a resident or not, you only need a general hunting permit UNLESS you are planning to pick up everything you see and are in possession of "10 of the same species or 25 in the aggregate". As long as you do not exceed those limits, you only need a general hunting permit. You will need BOTH if you plan to take those numbers. That info comes straight from LE in Austin , as well as, from the supervisor out of San Angelo, Texas. Good luck

PS Added a dark female from east of Comstock and a light male off Juno to this years catch last night. It was slow !

Duckman is spot on with is info. We seem to go through this every year at this time. You only need that nongame animal collecting permit if you exceed those previously mentioned limits or if you plan to sell or trade any nongame animals. This includes the offspring of captive adults. The only exceptions are dead mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes or parts thereof. Finally processed products made from parts of nongame wildlife are also exempt from this nongame collecting permit. Rattlesnake rattles are used as an example of this exemption in the info packet that TP&W sent me. Albinos or animals possessed under a bait dealers license are also exempt. All of you out of staters ought to ask TP&W for one of these info packets and keep it in your possession. They also include a list of all nongame animals affected. As an out of state herper, I've always believed that having this info on hand shows a good faith effort on my part to comply with Texas game laws, just in case I am stopped by one of these wardens who does his own "interpretation" of the law.

The best way to go for the majority of you out of state herpers is to get a Non-Resident 5-day special hunting license. Ask the kid behind the Wal-Mart counter for a type 157 hunting license. Make sure you tell him hunting, so that he won't get confused looking through his menu of fishing licenses. These licenses can be renewed every 5 days, as needed.

Good luck to everyone this season. I hope to see some of you on Black Gap road during the dark moon in June.

Brad, Duckman is right. however, I always have my non game collecting permit because I sometimes do collect in those numbers, and I do not want any hassles. I get enough of those as it is. It is not the Sheriffs job to question if you have a hunting license or not, therefore you do not have to show him. If he is so concerned about that, he can call the state and find that information out. As far as him "holding" you like Chambo was talking about, that is illegal as hell. whether or not you have a license or not is NOT his domain. If he were to hold you becasue you refused to show him your hunting license, I think there would be a case for a lawsuit myself, or harrassment. If this is out of line, OH WELL!!!! ....................

Wayne

Wayne.........I've always thought it a great idea not to redline a law enforcement officer's "attitude detector" within the first 5 seconds of a stop............lol. I've always tried to be friendly......"the Texas way"......whenever pulled over. A little friendly small talk goes a long way. I even had a Border Patrol officer apologize to me for holding up my snake hunting efforts one night on Black Gap after chatting for a while. So far, my herping in grayband land has been hassle free. Maybe this year is YOUR year on the River Road. I hope so.......methinks it would take away some of that crankiness........LOLOL............Steve G.

You may be right! All you need is a couple of thousand dollars and an attorney to find out.I can tell you this, I had a permit to collect a protected species and any unprotected species and any dor, protected or not, at ANY TIME BY ANY MEANS. I was stopped by a warden(a tp&w warden) and told that my permit, issued by tp&w was not valid because tp&w could not give me a permit to break the law. All I needed was a couple of thousand dollars and an attorney to find out if tp&w could issue me a permit to break one of tp&w's laws or not.
Do you realy want to know??????

nt

I thought the lawyer in Alpine said that spears was based out of Alpine. He should be listed with TP&W in that area unless he was moved or something. I agree that the River Road is huntable unless renamed and maintained by the park. It is always a crap shoot when dealing with LE. Some are inherently nice, others will take advantage of their position. That is the nature of the "beast". Keep in mind the wardens are not out every night. Just be polite when pulled over, and if necessary cary a camera or tape recorder. I say hunt where you like, just not in the national or state parks. The animals in those areas are protected just like the land is...

if you plan on being there five days or less.Keeps it short and simple when you go to buy it. That is the one I always get anyway. I don't know the numbers for any of the more extended permits.