Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As of now I'm fairly new to the herping world. I started out with a little Cal King, and Snow corn. I did alot of reading before i got both snakes, and i know a guy that goes to my chruch that has a lot of experance with rasing corn snakes. I keep them in sepret tanks because i know the king will eat my snow corn. I'm getting ready to add a black milk snake to my collection, (its a snake eater too correct?) and my mentor is about ready to hatch his first clutch of corns, and the second clutch is on the way. (I promised i'd take a baby off his hands.) So, that leaves me with 4 snakes by the end of this year. I started building a rack system to house all 4 snakes in 4 30 long breader tanks, one on top of the other, so to speak. Now heres the question. (a long build up i know...)

Will being that close to predetor snakes freak out my corn snakes. As it is now, my 2 snake tank sit of opisite sides of the room, will moving them closer allow the corns to pick up the sent of the king/milk? Just wondering. I'd hate to have my corns living in constent fear of being eaten.

Thanks for the help!

EX

Snakes have a really acute sense of smell. If you don't already know, they use their tongue for that picking up molecules from the surfaces of objects around them as well as from the air, then inserting the tips of the tongue into the Jacobson's Organ in the roof of the mouth where the molecules are analyzed. These organs are extremely sensitive. There's no doubt they know what resides in the cage next to them.

Bill and Kathy Love are some of the premier breeders of Corn Snakes in the U.S. Kathy probably has as much experience with breeding and husbandry (as well as applied genetics) of Corn Snakes as anyone in the world. She has expressed that she has seen a difference in feeding and overall behavior of Corn Snakes that are housed in close proximity to ophiophagous snakes such as King Snakes.

Olfactory cues play a very large part in a snakes behavior. You will notice that if you put your hand in the cage of a hungry snake after you've handled a mouse, you stand a good chance of getting a bite, even from a snake that normally won't bite you even if it's hungry. This would indicate that most snakes don't rely on vision much, but go by the idea "If it smells like a mouse, it must be a mouse." (Some arboreal species will be exceptions to that rule) So, if you take that one further, it stands to reason that if they smell a Kingsnake, which they are instinctively fearful of, then "There must be a Kingsnake in here somewhere." Constantly living with that is going to cause some level of constant stress and the Corn Snake is just not going to thrive well as it would if it were in a place where it couldn't smell the Kingsnake.

Well thank you. What got me thinking was i noticed a very different reaction in the corn when i handled it AFTER I handled my king. Didn't put 2 and 2 together until Jim (my mentor) said the king sent may be bothering the corn. I know he's had both, but not at the same time... Hmm.

I guess, since I haven't built my rack yet, i can make 2 and put them across the room from each other... Right now, they are,ball park, 10 feet apart, maybe a tad more... How far apart do you think they need to be. As it is now, i don't really have a feeding issue with my corn, she only refused to eat once, when she was sheding, which from what i understand is normal, but she is a little hesident about taking the food, at least compared to my king, who ragularly pulls the mouse out of my tongs she strikes so fast and hard... (i've played tug o war with her a few times. I let her win. ) I wonder if that has anything to do with a king in the area, or if its normal... (noob here. lol)

Thing is, the rest of my family isn't to keen on my hobbie, so this is my "snake room", and the tanks are as far apart as i can get them... I wonder, any advice on making my corn/soon to be corns more comfertable. Also, you king a kind and a milk snake keep close together will bother each other, since they booth eat other snakes... Will kings scare other kings? Just wondering...

EX-731

man, that last half of my message didn't make any since, I'm dyslexic btw, and sometimes, that happens with me, let me try again... CAN a king, and Milk snake be housed next to each other. Do you think, since they are both predeter snakes, they'd intimedate each other, or no? Do Kings scare other Kings? Hope that makes more since...

EX-731 yes i like smiles..

As far as how far apart to keep the Kings and Corns, I really can't say. I would think that opposite sides of a large room should be sufficient. I would also think that after a period of time, the Corn Snakes might become "conditioned" to King Snake scent and not be bothered by it any more, unless it was really strong, like if the King were in the same cage with it. Maybe you could start out across the room and gradually move them closer together until they are in the same rack? To be honest, I've kept Rat Snakes of various flavors in very close proximity to King Snakes and never had a problem that I recognized. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a problem, just that I didn't think about it or look for it.

I really don't think that one King Sanke is going to be bothered by another's scent. I keep MANY Kingsnakes in racks right next to each other and I've never noticed any problems or unusual behavior. They all do very well.

One thing I found out a long time ago is that if you put a small kingsnake in a cage with a big boa, the boa will FREAK OUT (at least the one time I did it). That seemed odd to me that Boa Constrictor would have that sort of reaction to a Kingsnake that isn't even indigenous to the area they come from. What does that mean? Is it that all ophiophagous snakes have a certain pheremone they give off that all other snakes recognize?

Thanks a lot for your advice. I'll try your sugestions. A boa scared by a kingsnake? LoL. Thats a funny mental picture! One day i'd like to own a Boa... Right now I'm in my learning phase, and want to do right by the snakes i have. I'm fanasnited by them.

I'm a very curisus person. VERY curisus. (to the point of being annoying. ) I'll read information on anything i can get my hands on, even animals i know i'll never keep myself. I'm very much a spider phobob, but read all kinds of care sheets for keeping them, simple because I want to know what's involved, for no other reason than to know... is that strange? Anyway, i'm rambeling on now. Thanks again.

EX-731

EX-371, If I was a snake kept in captivity, you are the kind of person I'd like to have as my own. I especially find it refreshing that there are others that muse about some of the same things as me.

I only keep Chondros, for me it keeps it as simple as possible keeping them all in the same type housing with one general set of requirements. I was concerned that my first chondro, Zalty, would be in a state of permanent scent teasing because I have a parakeet, Baboo, in the same room. I didn't want him to stress out trying to get to the bird and not being able to. It was suggested to me that my parakeet might be more concerned than the snake..... Hmmm....I felt horrible that I hadn't thought of that!! I love my bird too!!

I didn't have much of a choice because both animals were going to be kept in the same room with us. I decided to watch carefully and if I had to make changes I would consider those as needed and to not worry until I saw a problem. Things have worked out well. The bird KNOWS when the snake cages are open and won't have anything to do with us..... but, when they are closed he's his very friendly self. I believe he knows that we look out for him, and actually believe he's pissed at us because the snakes take some of the time from us that we used to give to him!!

I don't really have any advice but wanted to say that I too find this topic quite fascinating. Thanks!!

Well thank you! I'm trying my best to keep my snakes happy. I'm very lucky to have a guy with lots of experence with snakes i can call when ever i have a problem/question/concern.

Funny thing is, one of my frist major questions i had before I got my king snake had to do with a similer experaince to yours. I have dogs (4) and a cat. 3 of my dogs are fairly large. (150 lbs Bull Mastif. a good size Mix, kind of looks like a calloe/sheep dog, and a Dotshound.) My newest dog is a Chawaya... the little "rat" dog as i call him. So i was afraid, 1.) My snake would want to eat him and drive himself crazy tryin to get him. 2.) He'd get out of his cage and, if not eat my dog, at least hurt or get hurt trying to eat him.

Jim said he didn't think it'd be a big issue, "just keep the dogs out of your snake room, and make sure they can't excape." So now i do the best i can to keep them out of my snake room, So the snakes aren't stressed, but more importently, for the time being, i'm allerigic to dogs, (can you belive it?!?! I just found out like 8 mounths ago... blew me away!) and I need a dander free room anyway. I get bimonthly shots, and take allegra D to combat the effects. (I'm not giving up my dogs, not without one heck of a fight anyway!) Hopefully i'll be over it soon...

Well, I must get back to work. Thanks for your kind words, and your expearince with your snake and bird... See you'll around!

EX

Parakeets don't have a great sense of smell, but they do share a range with snakes in the Morelia genus in the wild. It would be interesting if a captive parakeet still knew to be afraid of a python.
None of my snakes has ever reacted to dog scent. Not on the menu, I guess.

Do boas share a range with any of the Lampropeltis? It wouldn't suprise me if kings smell a lot like milks, and maybe big milks can eat baby boas? Just a guess.
We accidentally went right from my king's tank to my hognose's one day, and he completely freaked out. They're in the same room, though, just not very close.

Yes, Milk Snakes share a large range with Boas.

For what it's worth here's my experience. I keep two kings, two pythons, and a boa on shelves on the same wall in my herp room. They can definitely smell each other and the two kings and one python can see each other. All are good feeders and none have ever freaked out about each other but I'm pretty diligent about washing hands after every handling. I would arrange the cages to suit your situation and observe your snakes carefully. If the corn acts weird or stops eating then you need to change something.