Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a joint project with Michelle of Creatures of the Night. She loaned me her beautiful, huge, male butter possible het for motley. He bred all three females and I don't think he lost a gram of weight in the process. One female is an amel motley from Jeff Pounds. One female is my aztec amel het for anery. I refer to her as an orange amel because she looks like an orange creamsicle but is pure corn, no emory. The other female is from Randy Middleton. She is aztec, het for motley, het for caramel. The amel motley is due to lay her eggs any day. This group should definitely prove out this males possible motley genes. Hoping for a couple of surprises and to actually get some butter motleys but if not, we will have a very nice group of hets for motley and aztec butters.

Very cool project, but one question. Is the Aztec abberation actually genetic recessive? I'm curious about the wierd patterned corns, seein' as I got a few unexpected ones (shown below), so any info would be awesome. THanks!

AJ

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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

We'll see with these clutches. Some breeders claim that aztec is and some say that it is not. If it's recessive, the hatchlings will have to be raised and bred back to the female parent as well as to each other. If it is not recessive but still genetic, we should see it in the hatchlings.

Aztec and zig zag are not recessive traits. Hence, the babies from them are not considered heterozygous. These patterns are a form of genetic dominance.
South Mountain Reptiles

Thanks for the info. Since I haven't bred any aztecs until this year, I have not seen the results for myself.

I'm genetically stupid, but that's not to say stupidity runs in my family, I just don't have a good grasp on it. My dad might. Anyway, I digress. What's genetic dominance mean? I understand recessive, but does dominance mean it's gonna take over all traits? Help me out, or I can call my dad...

AJ
King Donut Eater
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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

If you bred a zig/zag or aztec to a normally patterned snake, you will get them in the offspring. A dominant trait could be compared to the normal looking and patterned snakes, a recessive trait would be amel, anery, motley etc., where they are only passed on when you have two animals that are homozygous for the trait, heterozygous for the trait or one of each. If you bred a zigzag to a normal, you will get zig zag babies, but usually not as strongly patterned as if you bred two zigzags together. The trait for zigzag is dominant over the trait for a normal pattern, like normal coloration is dominant over amelanism.

Hope that is right and that it helps,
Rick S.
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"D'oh!" Homer Simpson

I'd agree with that in some cases. What I find interesting about this pattern is how incomplete it is. If you breed two normal corns together and get a baby with two connected markings, is that a zag/aztec? If you kept breeding babies together that have just two connected markings, eventually you'd end up with generations of almost fully connected markings. I personally don't know if this means the pattern is dominant over normal since it does not include all markings on that snake.

The Okeetees we see out there have this "problem". I've had some killer colored Okeetees that had just one or two connected markings. It takes many generations to get rid of this. If I could never get rid of it, I couldn't call that connected pattern trait dominant. I confess that I do not completely understand it. More frustrating is when five successive generations support my ideas of how a trait functions and then the sixth generation shoots my theories down the drain. Arrgghhh!!!
South Mountain Reptiles

Glad you had the guts to ask that question.

I should have prefaced my comment by saying "I am speaking (typing) from my own personal experiences". I'm sure there are exceptions to what I'm about to say regarding zig zags/aztecs.

When I breed one of my partially zig zagged/aztec corns to a common looking corn, I get some with partial zig zag/aztec pattern. Most of the F-1 babies will exhibit some degree of this pattern. Some of the babies actually have more of that pattern than the zagged parent. I have bred two partially zagged animals together and have produced some babies with no zagging at all. Most did have it in varying degrees (either more or less than either or both parents), but some actually had none.

For lack of a more accurate term, I call this trait "co-dominant". I can visually see evidence of both parents in most of the babies. I see normal markings and I see the zag or aztec in the same animal. BTW, I said partial zagging because fully zagged/aztec corns are extremely rare. What's even more frustrating about this pattern trait is how unpredictable it is. Dominant genes behave this way. They are not predictable like the classically Mendelian recessives. It'll make ya crazy to breed two almost fully zag patterned animals together and not get a single one with markings as nice as either parent.

Probably the most popular (and frustrating) example of a co-dominant trait is the candy cane. Perhaps the candy cane should be called partially or incomplete dominant. Since it's just a 'look' that we desire within the amelanistic corns, it's appeal is subjective. When we breed two nice red and white candy canes together, not all the babies will be marketable as candy canes. The only thing recessive about candy canes is the amelanism. The red and white look is not recessive and therefore unpredictable.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Don, you are amazing. Thank you very much for all your help. Hope you don't mind me picking your mind on this topic, because I am completely in love with abberant/wierd patterns. Here's a quick question for you, if you have time.

Here's the set-up. Last year I bred an anery to a snow, and came up with the psuedo-zig zag pictured below. So, obviously somewhere, there's an abberant pattern gene in at least one of those two parents. Now, I have a creamcicle (hybrid, I know, sorry) that has somewhat of a zig-zag in him, so i'm breeding him with the female anery mentioned above. Wierd thing is, neither original pair showed any zig-zag or anything, so if it's dominant, how's that work? And, since he's showing some wierd pattern, wouldn't I get some awesome looking babies?

Still catching on to this, thanks in advance for your help!

AJ
King Donut Eater

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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

I think of this as a variant of a dominant trait. Here are my thoughts on this and they're just that. We have not yet figured out exactly what is causing this "look".

First of all, there is a phenomonon I refer to as "thermal aberrancy". This is when something environmentally affects the development of the egg. Too much moisture, not enough moisture, deformed egg, fungus or bacterial infection. One or more of these conditions can contribute to pattern or color anomalies. I can't imagine that the zig zagging would be one of the results. Usually, we see striping or lack of pattern or color. In my experience this happens in the final stages of development when color and pattern are happening. The proof of it is when you unexpectedly hatch a fully striped baby. You breed it back to one of its parents and don't get any stripes. You keep it's babies and breed back to it and get no striping. Hence, the stripe was not heritable and therefore was not a recessive trait.

I have bred two almost fully zagged animals together and didn't get a single one with as much as either parent. Also, I got several that had only one connected pair of markings and I've hatched some that had none. Therefore, I believe that the aztec/zag trait is not completely dominant. If it IS dominant, it sends that pattern affect into some animals very minimally. That is, some may only have two connected markings instead of zig zagging. That would probably still be this particular "dominant" trait expression.

If you had a mostly white dog that had lots of black spots, but one unusual and noticable large black spot on the head, you'd probably see some of her babies with the same unusually large black spot on the head. Maybe not in the same place, but noticably larger than the other spots and on the head. This is a dominant trait. If your grandfather has a big nose, you're likely to have a big nose. This trait might be apparent in many of your family members, but no two noses are alike. An observer might say, "I could tell you are related to your uncle by your nose", but your nose is not exactly like his. Blah, blah, blah. I think you get my point. We can't yet scientifically say exactly what is going on with the zig zag trait, but in my experience it is NOT a recessive trait. Therefore, babies from one cannot be heterozygous for it.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

I have a thirst for knowledge, thanks for humoring me! Great explination. So, since my eggs are about to hatch, should I go shake them? I like wierd patterns! That's a joke.

I've heard that ball python eggs do the same thing as far as patterns go. I know they have a genetic recessive gene, but last year my friend hatched two balls in an incubator that lost power for 8 hours and the temp fell during that time. One of hte babies had a complete stripe down his back, really cool look. I guess the same thing can happen to corns, huh? Very cool explination on the big nose thing. THat's actually true in my family, oddly enough. Me and my dad have huge heads with big noses.

Thanks for all your help.

AJ
King Donut Eater
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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

Well, you'll probably be passing that nose down you family tree to your descendents. Dominant trait of a dominant, eh?

That Amel Motley is one of the nicest I have ever seen. All in all an awesome project. That is indeed a large Butter..
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield