Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi folks,

Given that there are a multitude of organisations out there (such as PETA, some SPCA's etc) that would love any excuse to put the keeping of animals under a blowtorch of contempt in the hope of taking away our rights to pursue a legitimate interest I thought it might be timely to pose this question for discussion:

Should the herp-community be concerned about the actions of individual members?

In considering your responses I would like you all to consider the following hypothetical scenario:

A herper decides that he wants to be able to show off with venomous snakes in front of an audience but doesn't want to pay out a fortune in exhorbitant insurance premiums for public liability cover. To get around this he decides to buy some sutures and scalpel blades, and after putting his snakes in the refrigerator until their core temperatures drop to dangerous levels and they become torpid, he will sticky tape them to blocks of wood, use rubber bands and nails to pry open their mouths, and then proceed to hack out their venom glands ...

After all ... no venom, no liability ... right?

Assume that the snakes survive this mutilation at the hands of the person legally responsible for their care. Note however that this person is not a qualified veterinarian, does not have any form of ethical approval to carry out animal experiments, and in actually performing the operations committed a number of animal cruelty and related offences.

The herper then decides to publicise his "success" and takes these home-made "venomoid" snakes along to a public meeting held by an amateur reptile club. At this meeting he proceeds to hand out his newly butchered snakes to members of the audience, including very young (and probably impressionable) children, and allows them to freely handle the snakes...

Now I know that the scenario above sounds very improbable, and perhaps it is, but it raises a number of issues about responsible conduct and animal welfare that I think we should all discuss. In fairness we need to also consider the various alternative perspectives as well and try to look at this sort of issue from all angles. Some of the angles to consider might be:

1. This only involves one individual right? And surely what one individual does should be none of our business ...? or should it?

2. Sure the law says that this sort of backyard surgery is illegal, but didn't the snakes survive? No harm done then eh?

3. Even if PETA got hold of this sort of story, surely nobody would believe such a fairytale?

4. The actions of an individual have nothing to do with the actions of all herpers ... or do they?

5. There is nothing wrong with letting young kids handle venomoid snakes - after all, the venoms glands are long gone arn't they?

6. Venomoid snakes make life easier for everyone - just think we can all act like Steve Irwin at last - without the fear of injury...!

7. Backyard surgery is a reprehensible activity performed by individuals who have no consideration for their animals whatsoever - they deserve our public vilification and contempt - and if they break the law, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

8. If we as a community of herpers want to be treated as something more than a bunch of backwoods retards, petty criminals and trailer trash (no offence anyone ...) then we have to take responsibility for policing our hobby and should not condone these sorts of actions by refusing to allow them to be debated; pretending they don't happen; or giving our unspoken approval by allowing individuals to advertise butchered animals for sale ...

Please note again that this is a hypothetical scenario and a question directed against no one individual person ... please make sure that you do not post replies directed against any one individual or organisation - keep the discussion on the topic and please try to be constructive in your responses ...

Cheers

David
Australian Herpetology ONLINE

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David Williams
PNG Snake Venom Research Project
PO Box 168
Port Moresby, NCD, PNG.

Send Email

Now in florida this show would be shut down.

"After all ... no venom, no liability ... right? "

The state considers venomoids hot and must be licensed and bonded.

My main gripe is It takes the old art of freehandleing.
and basicly flushes it down the toilet.
Pay to play mentality.
People that have zero skill can own a venomoid king no problem.

Plus the whole procedure should be deemed a crime in my opinion.

"1. This only involves one individual right? And surely what one individual does should be none of our business ...? or should it? "

I wish it was just one there are many just look at the classifieds.
They are spreading like a virus.
They affect us all.

"2. Sure the law says that this sort of backyard surgery is illegal, but didn't the snakes survive? No harm done then eh? "

It would depend where you live if its illegal But in my opinion It is butchery.
Some venomoids die sooner than others but some make it and the owners
cry they Mine is OK ltc !!!!!!!

"3. Even if PETA got hold of this sort of story, surely nobody would believe such a fairytale? "

They love this kind of stuff and will go after any person that performs theses acts.
They figure just one more nail in the coffin of the animal trade.

"4. The actions of an individual have nothing to do with the actions of all herpers ... or do they? "

Its cumulative,eventualy everyone will hear of these actions then they will say
"surely what one individual does should be none of our business"
Till they ban it.

"5. There is nothing wrong with letting young kids handle venomoid snakes - after all, the venoms glands are long gone arn't they?"

I would not let anyone touch snakes,photos ok.
The little kiddos would go out and pick up a hot and get bit.

"6. Venomoid snakes make life easier for everyone - just think we can all act like Steve Irwin at last - without the fear of injury...!"

It used to be a skilled art of freehandling but the venomoiders found a easy way out of the skill part of the plan.

"7. Backyard surgery is a reprehensible activity performed by individuals who have no consideration for their animals whatsoever - they deserve our public vilification and contempt - and if they break the law, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law."

Dito's- If its a real crime lock them up. I hate the whole idea and I am sure my mambas
feel the same.!

". If we as a community of herpers want to be treated as something more than a bunch of backwoods retards, petty criminals and trailer trash (no offence anyone ...) then we have to take responsibility for policing our hobby and should not condone these sorts of actions by refusing to allow them to be debated; pretending they don't happen; or giving our unspoken approval by allowing individuals to advertise butchered animals for sale ... "

Here is the tough spot until its a crime to buy and sell them they have the right to be sold and bought.
I understand censorship.
I think venomoiders need to get a differet job but untill they are banned they LIVE grrrrrrrr.

later

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Bud

The answer is most definitly YES. The days when every herper was "an Island" are long gone. With all the forces looking to end our hobby, such individuals as(HYPOTHETICALLY)described, provide fuel for PETA and other anti-pet organisations.

Many years ago, I pushed to form a legal commity for our local herp society. My logic was...If we don't Police Ourselves then others (who know less and that do not have our interests in mind) WILL.

Any reputable herper should be made aware of what is going on. if there is abuse, we need to find a way to stop it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

But I think the biggest threat to private ownership of venomous herps does not come from venomoid producers / keepers. It comes from people keeping these animals irresponsibly, resulting in bites to themselves or escaped animals. This is probably the most likely thing to turn the “court of public opinion” against private venomous keepers. Therefore, making sure these animals do not make it into the hands of irresponsible individuals is probably the best strategy to avoid outright prohibition of private ownership of venomous herps. A rigorous permitting system that improves the chances that venomous keepers are capable of responsibly keeping these animals is the way to go. I think most people falling into the category of responsible keepers would have nothing to do with venomoids, so this despicable practice should also fade away if such a permitting system were put in place.

Just my two cents…

Cheers,
WK

I was approachd last night by an individual who was not licensed and needed to dispose of a Gabbon Viper that was 4' long that had been given to him by another individual (who also lacked a license).

I directed him to a licensed dealer who would take the animal.

The point is that the chain started with a disreputable dealer who sold the snake to an unlicensed person in the first place.

There is our biggest problem....We do not police ourselves and report dealers like that before dangerous animals are sold to untrained individuals...Talk about handing out loaded guns!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."