Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As I understand it the Sunset Boa was first produced by crossing a F3 Central American Super Hypo with an F2 super high orange Hogg Island Boa. The babies of the breeding were raised and bred back to each other. The "Super" babies came out looking like no other Hypo or Hypo x Hogg ever produced, and the Sunset Boa was born. Since then Sunset Boas have been produced another two years in a row. Is this a unique genetic trait specific to only this lineage? I guess we will see when we start to see some other Super Hypo x Hoggs. I would assume that Dave at East Tenn. Reptiles will probably have some this year and then we can all stop guessing. Either way in my opinion it is. Just as you can produce snakes that look like Ronne line "Pastel Albinos" or Chuck T's "Coral Albinos" a Pastel or Coral Albino it does not make. I particaly wrote this post because I have a pair of the crosses and it has upset me to see some people adveritzing Hypo x Hogg crosses with statements such as "Be on the way to Sunset Boas with these guys." and those of the like. I understand people may innocently be making these claims without fully understanding the genetics behind Sunsets. However for someone like myself, Ian of Slect Reps, and Dave of East Tenn Reptiles, I feel statements like that stand to degrade the investment we have made in this project.
I MAKE THIS STATEMENT MYSELF AND IN NO WAY AM I ATTEMPTING TO EXPRESS THE OPINIONS OF DAVE OR IAN AS I HAVE NOT SPOKE WITH THEM PRIOR TO THIS POST.

Dave produced Hypo x Hoggs 2 years ago that were absolutely stunning.
He was honest enough to advertise them as just that...hypo x hogg.
They looked every bit as good and probably better than any "Sunset" boa I have ever seen. I don't think he was tagging them with a new morphlike name and attempting to sell them for $2000.
I have a price sheet that I picked up from a show a couple of years ago that had an outrageous price for Sunset boas and did not describe what the genetics actually were. I don't even remember who the breeder was who coined the term "Sunset". But I think he was being a little deceptive.
I think that they are nice looking animals. But personally, I have no interest in them and don't see the value.
I have a gorgeous group of hogg's and hypo's (including Ihle salmon's) that I could very easily breed to make the same thing. You could probably pick up a really nice adult hogg and salmon for under 1K and make your own.

I see what your saying but don't knock them until you have seen them in person. When I say they are not like anything else out there I mean it. If they weren't that special why would Dave buy one if he could make them himself.

My guess without asking Dave is he picked one up to diversify his blood, but again I haven't talked to him regarding it.

Regarding the "sunsets" in my opinion someone can claim they are a particular line such as the salmon for Ihle or the Pastel dream for Ronne, but because of the attempt at deception by the "creator" I have no respect and will not refer to his attempt at deception as anything other then a way to get extra money. I personally plan to pick up a hypo hogg in the future but only from someone who has been up front and completely honest from the beginning.. Meaning Dave @ East Tenn will get my money for this project.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
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I think you guys are misunderstanding the sprit in which I started this tread. Alot of people have been asking about the genetics behind Sunset Boas, and I thought I could clarify the situation a bit. I also addressed the fact that people not even knowing the genetics behind Sunsets were stating you could produce them with their Hypo x Hogg crosses. Is that a fact? No one knows at this point. That is the statement I was trying to make. You guys seem to think that any Super Hypo Hogg is a Sunset. I don't, but am willing to admit that I don't know for sure. What I do know is that Dave will know this year and I'm sure we will all know soon after that. What I do think is that he must see something special in them, as myself and alot of people do, because I'm sure there are alot cheaper ways to deverisify your lineage. I am glad that you have your own opinions on the subject, and thank you for voicing them, just don't expect me to embrace them. Remember that what you see as beautiful I may see as ugly and vice versa, but it still won't make them any less beautiful in either of our eyes. Another thing you speak about is feeling decieved because of the name of the boas. You claim to have seen a price sheet at a show without the genetics of the animal on the price sheet?!?! Why would the genetics be on the price sheet. If you were at the show and intrested in them why didn't you go to the table and ask the breeder about the genetics, or go to this website and find out about them. Its all there in black and white that dosen't sound decieving to me just lazy on your part. Do you really think anyone is going to shell out that kind of cash for a snake without understanding the genetics behind it? All I know is that when I produce true Sunset Boas I will be proud to advertize them as Sunset boas from D&M line crosses and I will charge accordingly. If noone wants to pay for them then I guess I will have alot of georgous snakes on my hands. I win either way. I don't think you'll see any big name breeders lower there prices anytime soon beacuse you don't think there worth it, because theres plenty out there that understand what they are paying for.
P.S. If you could let me know where I can get a 1.1 Adult Super Hypo and Orange Hogg Island Boa pair for less than $1000 so I can make my own Super Hypo Hoggs please let me know... OH but wait I would still have to raise the babies and breed them back!!Wouldn't I? I guess its not as easy, quick, or cheap as it sounds is it?

Maybe if you read my post you would understand that Dave did produce these crosses 2 years ago.
As for me being lazy, I stated that I wasn't interested in this cross and that I picked up his price list at a show. I didn't care what the genetics were because they didn't interest me.
If you were not new to this forum, you would have seen this discussion several times in the past.
If you want to pay 2K for a cross of relatively inexpensive and declining value snakes, then more power to you.
Maybe you can buy D&M out of all their stock and teach everyone a lesson.
Dave produced animals 2 years ago that blew away EVERY "sunset" boa I have ever seen.
Breeders don't lower their prices on morphs because the demand remains consistent, especially on albinos, motleys, sunglows,etc.
These morphs are proven genetic mutations. Not the same as crosses.
If you think crosses of locality animals will get you 2K each, knock yourself out. But make sure to name them something interesting to deceive people and keep them guessing about their true origin.
BTW...There are some American Jungles in the classifieds that you might be interested in.

Maybe YOU didn't understand what I said. There is a big difference in a Hypo x Hogg cross and a Super Hypo Hogg cross. Maybe YOU don't understand the genetics of a Hypo are not recssive they are Co-dominant therefore there is a difference between a Hypo x Hogg and a Super Hypo Hogg (the closest thing to a Sunset). What about Jeff Ronnes line of Pastel Dreams and Pastel Albino's are those genetic beyond selective breeding? I think not... Maybe your not sure who the novice really is.

If you don't think crosses will get 2k plus why don't you call Dave and ask him what he paid for his female Sunset, or better yet ask him what he will charge for his Super Hypo x Hogg crosses when he produces them THIS year(pay attention now I said Super). Finally why don't you call Ian of Slect Reps and ask what he paid for those crosses, or better yet what he sold them for? Then you let me know what someone will pay for a cross!!!

The way I see it, the day everyone selling hypos, or salmons starts including in their ads that what they are selling is the product of central american and colombian boas, then we can start picking on someone else for naming their line of crosses.
I don't see a difference here.
I think it is important to know what you are buying if you are tring to produce pure animals, but locality breeders aren't going to click on an ad for "sunset boas" for anything other than a good laugh, or to aquire fuel for their arguements.
The name should only be used to describe the line from the original breeder, or from breeding the offspring from that line.
Just my opinions though.
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Davey Giltner

I may be wrong but i believe that the first hypo hoggs came from Tip Powers who used an F1 salmon to a very nice looking hogg...Those offspring were then sold to D and M....After that I believe they bred these animals back to one another....

I am going by the information I was given by D&M when I bought them, and what is on the website when I say F3 Super Hypo and F2 Super Orange Hogg. Other than that I can't say for sure. I don't have first hand knowledge of the founder animals.

The following was taken directly from the D&M website...

This lineage has come from years of very selective breedings. The blood line of a 3rd generation super salmon and 2nd generation orange phase, a very orange Hogg Isle boa. This project started in the 80s by Tip Powers and has successfully been accomplished by D&M breeders.

I have been wondering about this very question for the last month. I've emailed several people, including all of the breeders that are being talked about here, and have recently posted on here about it. Boy did I get a mixture of replies.
After reading all of the posts from today, my conclusion is this:
You can create Sunsets by the result of crossing Dominant hypos, and orange Hoggs. I think the person who named them Sunsets has the right to do so, but can't say that it can only come from his line -- unless he has his own line of Hypos (not salmon or OT's), for he is using hypos that others created.
Otherwise, no one would be able to produce snows unless they used albinos and anytheristics that created the original snow (not just any albino,anythr cross would do in this senerio).
My conclusion is that whatever the boa types were, that the "creator" used, can also be used from different lines, and will create different degrees of Sunsets. That's how the other morphs work, that I am aware of.

I would have agree with some of your statement. You can produce Super Hypo x Hogg Crosses by breeding a Super Hypo to a Hogg Island and then offspring of that breeding back to each other. Where the real question comes in is will they be Sunsets or not. Either way I think not. If this is a new genetic morph then this is something that mutated within this lineage only since a Hogg Island is not a morph to begin with. Thus meaning that no other Hypo x Hogg breeding would create animals with these similar traits, unless purely by chance. On the other hand if similar boas can be produced by making Super Hypo x Hoggs using any Hypos and Hogg Island lineage then although not a genitic morph the Sunset is still a name assigned to this particular lineage of Super Hypo x Hoggs. In other words a Super Hypo x Hogg is only Sunset when created by using D&M Sunset line animals, and anything else is not. No matter what your opinion is that is a fact. Beyond that I don't think anyone has the right to say anything about there boas being able to produce Sunsets until they have actually produced one themselves, since as we can all see the genetics of this snake are not fully understood yet. All I know for sure beyond what I have already said is that D&M has produced them for three years running, and I will produce some of my own in two years if all goes well.

Let's suppose that in a few years we see multiple breedings of Super Hypo Hogg crosses, and back to each other combinations, and the results closely represent the Sunset fashion of snake, with more or less intensities , it wouldn't make sense to have a different name for each bloodline. Talk about confusion. But instead, have D&M line Sunsets, and Joe Blow line Sunsets ect. . .that would seem much more civil. It would be a bold move to say that, only your line are Sunsets, if others are producing replicas the same way with other bloodlines. Maybe all others should be called, Sunrise Boas !

Produced from above

nm

Harris Beach in Brookings, Oregon.

I agree with you there. If Super Hypo Hoggs when they become more frequently produced carry similar traits as the Sunsets I think it would be a great idea to name them as such just assigining a certian line as a prefix ie. D&M line Sunsets, however I don't know whos decision that is to make. Right now thats only speculation however since D&M is the only person to produce them. I say don't use the name in your adds until you've actually proven you can make one. You are right also about that picture being the nicest sunset. That is an awesome pic.

I was wondering regarding this topic.. Everyone who has seen a sunset boa, and also seen a Dave @ East Tenn hypo hogg (codom form only at this point) And can honestly say that a sunset BLOWS AWAY the mere codom form that Dave produces please say so. From the pictures (and no I have not seen either one in person) The codom animals Dave has produced look to be as nice in quality as the dominant sunsets, so to say the sunset from the evidence I have seen, is a different and "special" line is grasping at straws. Not trying to be arguementative or insulting, I just don't see any reason to think that the sunset is different other then the initial attempts by D&M to mislead and refuse to answer questions regarding the genetics. (and yes they did duck answering multiple emails from many people asking about the genetics until someone called them out on it.)
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
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I cannot say what the difference is between Daves Hypo x Hogg's and Sunsets are, but I have some other Hypo x Hoggs and the difference between them is unreal. While in a photo a regular Hypo x Hogg may look as nice or nicer than a Sunset because of the bright orange they tend to have, a Sunset has such a large range of so many different colors that covers its WHOLE body head to tail. The only way I can describe it is looking at that picture above of a real sunset you can totally understand why these boas carry the same name. They are truely unreal animals that can not be appreciated fully until seen in person.

I agree with you that most of the hypo hogg crosses on the market look nowhere as nice as a sunset boa does, but also that could be attributed to (but not known for sure if it is) to using sub par quality breeding stock. I just need to see one in person I guess to truely appreciate them. I just don't think I will be purchasing one for the price they try to sell them for..

Later
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
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hopefully between the hypo x crosses,sunsets & hypos.........I plan on a new morph soon or @ LEAST 100% Sunsets.
The MOST important thing to remember is........ "No matter what animal you work with, as long as you enjoy it & take good care of it.....................IS ALL THAT MATTERS.
HAPPY HERPI'N
Dave @ East TN Reptiles
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Actions Speak louder than words.
Dave @ East TN Reptiles

Is orange produced by a single mutant gene or by selective breeding?

Paul Hollander

To the best of my knowledge the orange Hogg is a product of selective breeding.