Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is the caramel albino compatible with a regular albino, has anyone ever breed these two and what did they get in a clutch??
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"I am not an expert."

1.0 Albino Het BP
0.1 Albino BP
1.0 Caramel Albino Het BP
0.2 Normal BP

I'm not sure if anyone has yet crossed these two mutations. I've asked several times and not been told that anyone has made the cross but everyone doesn't come to this forum and there are lots of secrets in the ball python community so I can't be sure.

I originally assumed that they where two separate and unrelated mutations and that you would get normal looking double hets if they where crossed.

Furthermore, I assumed that if you ever did produce a double homozygous albino caramel (the 1/16 chance from breeding the double hets together) that it would look just like an albino since my understanding is that caramel just removes some of the dark pigment and albino removes all of it. Maybe caramel does more than just takeaway dark, maybe it actually increases yellow, I don't know.

However, after reading about a caramel line that sometimes produces albinos and about some het caramels that produced albinos but failed to produce caramels I got to wondering if these two mutations might be alleles - different mutations of the same gene. I don't suppose it's particularly likely but it would be the most innocent explanation for the het situation. If they are alleles then a double het albino caramel could not be normal looking since it doesn't have a normal copy of that gene. If the two mutations are just doing different degrees of the same thing to remove black then perhaps the double het would look like a really good light caramel. Perhaps a founder imported caramel was really a double het albino caramel. In this scenario it would breed true for phenotype with a homozygous caramel (i.e. all babies would look caramel, although about half would be double hets) and of course anyone would assume it's a compatible caramel. However, about half of its hets to a normal would only be het albino and the other half would only be het caramel.

It's a pretty far out theory and again, I don't think particularly likely but I would sure like to know if anyone ever crossed the two and what resulted. For example, per that theory you could cross a homozygous caramel with albino's and produce all caramel looking double hets.

Since I haven't heard one way or the other on anyone else doing the cross I'm doing my best to test it by crossing a 66% possible het caramel with a 50% het albino which I think is now gravid. Most likely all the babies will be normal looking and my experiment will be a big waste since I don't even know if either of my possible hets is a het much less if any of their eggs will be double hets.

I recall that NERD sold some het caramel possible het albino's in '01 I believe.
And I remember someone hatching out regular albino babies, but no caramels, from these snakes in '02 or '03 I can’t remember.
I haven't heard anything since???
I always wondered about this myself.

TomChambers

www.spiderballs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=590

Check out that topic for more info from Nerd themselves.

"Just to set the record straight, NERD's original Caramel male (from which Corey's hets were produced) has since proven out to be het T- albino & has produced both T & T- albinos in the same clutch when bred back to one of his daughters (identifying her as a double het). Why someone whiffs on a clutch is anyone's guess, but the animals Corey was sent were indeed het caramels."
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- Joel Smith

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Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:50:30 by phwyvern.

I don't have a password for that site but what you posted could still be consistent with my theory (it doesn't prove it either, it's still pretty far out there).

If the original male was a double het and double hets look like caramels then each of his offspring had a 50/50 chance of being het for albino OR caramel (not both if alleles). If the daughter got the albino gene then double het father X albino het daughter would produce babies that each had a 25% chance of being albino, a 25% chance of being a caramel looking double het like dad, a 25% chance of being het for caramel only, and a 25% chance of being het for albino only.

Again, I don't think it's terribly likely that caramel and albino are alleles but it's a wild theory that is hard to disprove and stands up to all the data I've seen so far. I think we aren't going to really know for sure until someone breeds an albino with no caramel ancestors to a caramel from a line not known to produce albinos. They'll either produce normal looking double hets and kill my theory or produce caramel looking double hets indicating that they are alleles and caramel is dominant over albino.

And of course this theory, would be very twisted and unprecedented. If it weren’t' for the offspring of the original caramel that didn't produce caramels out of a large number of babies I also would have thought the father daughter breeding proved both double hets (and of course that still could be the case). My theory was just a way to reconcile those no caramel hets without a mixup or sperm retention or something like that.

>"Just to set the record straight, NERD's original Caramel male (from which Corey's hets were produced) has since proven out to be het T- albino & has produced both T & T- albinos in the same clutch when bred back to one of his daughters (identifying her as a double het). Why someone whiffs on a clutch is anyone's guess, but the animals Corey was sent were indeed het caramels."

Was the daughter a caramel or a normal? Did any normals appear in the clutch from this father x daughter mating? The answers to those questions might tell us something.

FWIW, xanthic and tyrosinase positive albino in the black rat snake are alleles. The heterozygotes are lighter than xanthic but not as light as tpa. (See Bern Bechtel's paper in one of the 1985 issues of the Journal of Heredity.) Of course, that doesn't mean that caramel and albino are alleles in the ball python. It does mean that it is worth doing some breeding to find out just what the situation is with caramel and albino.

Paul Hollander

I can't answer that question, it's not my place too

and the fact that i don't know.
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:49:40 by phwyvern.

I wasn't familiar with the Black Rat snake mutations but it brings an interesting idea up.

Perhaps if it turns out that caramel and albino balls are alleles then maybe albino in balls is a type of tyrosinase positive mutation. I think most of us assumed it was tyrosinase negative because we didn't see any dark but I don't know that any tests have ever been done to confirm if they have tyrosinase or not.

Of course I suppose they could be alleles (or not) regardless of if the albino mutation completely gets rid of tyrosinase but it’s a little easier for me to get my head around how they could be alleles if they where both caused by a gene that does something other than make tyrosinase.

>Perhaps if it turns out that caramel and albino balls are alleles then maybe albino in balls is a type of tyrosinase positive mutation. I think most of us assumed it was tyrosinase negative because we didn't see any dark but I don't know that any tests have ever been done to confirm if they have tyrosinase or not.

I asked Dave Barker that question about a year ago. He said that no boid had been tested for tyrosinase activity at that time. I do not know whether that situation has changed.

>Of course I suppose they could be alleles (or not) regardless of if the albino mutation completely gets rid of tyrosinase but it’s a little easier for me to get my head around how they could be alleles if they where both caused by a gene that does something other than make tyrosinase.

In the laboratory mouse, the albino mutant gene (c) is tyrosinase negative. There are half a dozen mutant alleles of albino that make partially functional tyrosinase. The mouse coat color is lighter than normal but not white. So it doesn't matter whether or not tyrosinase is involved; there is precedent for allelism both ways. Only breeding tests will tell whether caramel and albino are alleles in the ball python.

Paul Hollander

I was just going from my memory, but I don’t think it was Corey that I was recalling.
I wasn't implying that the animals were not het caramel or anything like that.
I just remember that in this particular het x het breeding he didn’t get any caramels, but he did get T- albinos.
When I asked why he got T- albinos he replied that his NERD caramels were possible het albinos.
I just read through the link, and kara's quote again. sounds familiar.
TomChambers

IF (a big IF at this point) there was a double het albino caramel male who looked like a caramel because albino and caramel are alleles and caramel is dominant over albino then each of his offspring to a normal would be either het albino or het caramel but not both. Any random pair of those offspring would have only a 25% chance of both being het albino and not capable of producing any caramel looking offspring. Per this theory (which may well be total bs) the other 75% of pairs would be combinations capable of producing at least some caramel looking animals. So, 75% of the pairs would not raise a red flag at all except that about 2/3 (of the 75%) of them would produce some albinos in addition to caramel looking animals. Only 25% of these het pairs would both be caramel capable of producing homozygous caramels and no albinos or albino hets.

Since things often don't follow exact expected odds it would look very much like the current explanation, that the original male was homozygous caramel and just happened to also be het albino - EXCEPT for those 25% of his het pairs where both got the albino gene. If there is another pair like Corey's it would be more circumstantial evidence but still wouldn't prove anything. By the way, Corey, did you get a clutch from that pair again this year? What is the total number of babies? Watch him get a caramel this year and blow my theory out of the water ...

Basically I've been hoping to goad someone into breeding caramel to albino for a year now to answer this question but it's an expensive gamble. Conventional wisdom is that you would get all normals when you could have bred the albino female to an albino male and got all albinos that would probably be worth a lot more than the double hets. By the time I own an adult caramel and albino pair we'll probably already have this figured out but if not I’ll give it a try.

Ok, this is so new that I messed it up.

IF caramel and albino are alleles and caramel is dominant over albino then of the offspring of a double het to a normal:

25% of pairs would both be albino hets and could produce only albinos and normals (some het for albino).

50% of pairs would be one het albino and one het caramel and could only produce caramel looking double hets (25%) and normal looking normals and het for either albino or caramel.

25% of pairs would both be het caramel and could produce caramels and normals (some het for caramel).

I am going to try it, I have a albino female and a male 100% het caramel albino (nerd line), Ill let everyone know what happens.
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"I am not an expert."

1.0 Albino Het BP
0.1 Albino BP
1.0 Caramel Albino Het BP
0.2 Normal BP

That's a heck of a lot better than my possible het pair but still might not tell us anything. If you get all normals it could be because they are unrelated morphs as originally thought OR it could just be that you weren't lucky and your het caramel male gave his normal gene to all the babies (depending on how many you get perhaps not that unlikely). Of course if you get any caramel looking (double het?) babies it will tend to support the theory, especially if your albino female doesn't have any known caramel gene ancestors (since some albinos have been produced already from the caramel project I got to figure they are out there somewhere).