Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have heard a rumor that it is possible to tell 100% het pie balds from normal ball pythons by the lack of belly patterns. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone else heard of this rumor?
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1.0 snow corn snake '02
0.1 butter corn snake '02
0.1 hi-red corn snake '02
0.1 CB KY locality corn snake '02
1.1 Texas Baird's rat snake '00
0.1 black rat snake '03
1.1 100% het albino and albino radiated rat snake '02&'03
1.1 tri-color hognose snake '03
1.1 albino striped Cal king snake '01
1.0 black king snake '01
1.1 black milk snake '01&'02
1.1 pueblan milk snake '03
1.1 African house snake '03
1.0 66% het pie bald ball python '02
1.0 50% het caramel albino ball python '02
0.1 ball python '02

Check this discussion out.

Het Markings
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Rob Talkington

bingo...check the thread the other response has the link for...i believe that was the most recent discussion about it...if you bacl paddle through the pages you'll find more but that thread should help you the best

Some people have 100% hets with the markings and without the markings.

Some people have normals with these tracks....that are simply normals.

Seems to be a seperate genetical trait that happens to run with some of the pied lines.

It's a reference.....but don't take it to the bank.
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Some pied breeders that are working exclusively with pieds whose hets have the belly pattern do use this trait to sort out possible hets. Do they get rid of true hets that don't happen to show it? Maybe, but if so it is unethical to sell the siblings that don't show the trait as possible hets if the breeder has low confidence that they really could be hets. Get to know the breeder, get references, and buy from somebody you trust. Plenty of normals show similar bellies. If you buy from an honest breeder, it doesn't matter what the belly looks like.
P.S. Some of you might remember the pied/het pied clutches Jack and Jayson at designersnakes.com produced last year from pied to 66% possible het females. Every clutch hatched pieds. You should see the striped bellies on their hets. I don't think they had much doubt about the "possible" het females they were breeding.
Paul

I think we all agree that some for sure hets don't have it. I can't explain why some should and some don't but I really don't have a problem with this as that seems to be what is happing with the granite and green Burmese python mutations.

The biggest challenge to this sign as reliable seems to me to be the idea that some normals have it. I'd like to see some pics of these normals to see if it is the exact same thing or not. It is complicated either way as I'm seeing varying degrees of the mark in possible hets so I could easily see some normals with something a lot like the less extreme possible hets. Oh well, nature doesn't owe us an easy one.

I just got my first 2004 clutch of eggs this morning from a 50% chance het pied male with the mark to a $45 pet store girl with the mark. Unfortunately there where 3 slugs and only four good-looking eggs (will candle tonight) averaging 73 grams and one of the four has a nipple deformity. So, I'm not holding my breath for a pied to pop out in two months but it would be a nice validation for the sign if one does.

Here is the pet store mom's belly. Why would I even think it’s possible that she is het pied and this isn’t just an example of a normal with the sign? I believe that there are a lot of hets randomly distributed in the wild, perhaps at rates as high as 1 in 200. What makes the wild bred recessive morphs rare is the chance of two 1 in 200 snakes getting together (1 in 40,000 if completely random – producing only 1 in 160,000 homozygous – may not be random due to localized inbreeding).

Here is an excellent example of the mark in a 25% chance het pied male produced by Raul Gomez from a 50% chance het male with the mark.

Here are some snakes I have. When I started into the het pieds, I had 6 normals that I had bought at expo's & pet stores. I had never even looked at their belly patterns until I started getting het pieds. Two of the normals show belly markings well within the distribution of the bellies of my het pieds. Apparently 2 out of 6 is not the typical ratio for white bellies and some dark bands by the tail, but that's how it worked out in my snakes. I am doing this in a hurry before work. Sorry for the poor image quality, but I certainly wouldn't want to try to pick out het pieds based on these bellies.
Paul

Thanks!

So what percentage of your het pieds have this mark?

The pics of the two presumed normals do look a lot like what I'd expect het pieds with the mark to look like. The marks are nice and dark and thick unlike some I've seen. Hard to tell but they do seem a little closer together than some I've seen, perhaps a better pic would show if there are 3 full belly scales between them or not. But then again the possible hets vary a lot too.

Two out of six does seem high for random presumed normals to have that mark. Did you get them from the same source and are they captive bred or not (i.e. could they be sisters - I'm assuming you where collecting females). Have either produced with a possible het with the mark yet? Did you pick them on any other criteria such as dorsal pattern?

The 2nd picture is the only normal. As a baby, he was very gray, with pure black and some brown coloration (very low yellow). I plan to breed him to my high yellow female (very low brown) hoping for some offspring combined low yellow and low brown to get something like an axanthic, but without the recessive gene. The other normal is also male, with very "busy" dorsal pattern originally planned to breed with my female with similar "busy" pattern. They were inexpensive and were bought at different times from different sources with the intention of playing with random dorsal pattern and color genetics. Neither of them will be bred into the pied project as I don't want that belly trait in there if it's not linked with known het pieds. 80% of my het pieds have what I would consider a reasonably strong marker. The others also have white bellies, just not the black stripes. The previously mentioned (another thread) 2002 "het pied female" from HCE has a typical speckled belly, and is being considered a normal female for future breeding, not due to belly pattern, but due to alleged HCE het pied scam.
Paul

So your pics 1, 3, and 4 are known het pieds and only pic 2 is an assumed normal? Too bad the two assumed normals with the belly are males. I understand worrying about contaminating the marker with a possible look-alike gene but if they where females I would risk it in case they are hets. Especially the one you selected due to the weird pattern. Some of my 25% chance females with the mark have some interesting chaotic and reduced dorsal patterns going on like some I saw in your pictures. I'll get some pics to post.

Some of these with "the mark" look like normal markings to me... maybe someday I will try to prove my male out to be a het...what do you all think LOL he is just a normal... but he is BEAUTIFUL

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"Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are." - Kurt Cobain

"You laugh at me because I am different; I laugh at you because you are all the same."

~~ Krystal ~~

My guy:

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"Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are." - Kurt Cobain

"You laugh at me because I am different; I laugh at you because you are all the same."

~~ Krystal ~~

He is VERY nice. I hope you get some beautiful babies from him soon.
Paul

Thanks... he is REALLY beautiful... I really enjoy having him... I am in the process of spoiling the hell out of him best I can (easier with dogs, but I try) with a NICE display cage. I gave up breeding for now... just not the time in my life ... but I will have to breed him someday for sure! Thanks again for the compliment!

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"Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are." - Kurt Cobain

"You laugh at me because I am different; I laugh at you because you are all the same."

~~ Krystal ~~

Yours has a real nice dorsal and is an interesting animal but he doesn't have the het pied belly marker at all. Look for the solid dark lines at the edge of an all white lower belly. The dark on the edge of yours doesn't connect to form the line and it goes all the way onto the belly to the big middle scale rather than stopping a scale or two out.

yes I noticed... it was more of a joke for the people who claim there BP has the marks... He is just my normal baby. BEAUTIFUL nomal baby though!
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"Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are." - Kurt Cobain

"You laugh at me because I am different; I laugh at you because you are all the same."

~~ Krystal ~~