Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I have been considering getting into the Mojave or the Pastel Project. If I were to get into the Mojave project I would get 1 male and go from there. If I got into the pastel project, I would get both a male and a female pastel and go from that point. I was wondering what you out in Kingsnake Forum land thought. Would you guys get into the Pastel project or the Mojave project and WHY? Which morph do you like more and WHY? I really cannot decide which way to go, but one thing is for sure, cash is limited... Anyways, and thoughts or impressions on my idea would greatly be appreciated.

HOOPY

Personally, I would get a pair of pastels. Not to say that they are any better than the mojave, it's just that their genes are co-dominant, you can breed them together to make a super pastel. Also, there seem to be more posibilities with a pastel to come up with a unique morph. But I also love the look of a mojave, they truly are gorgeous and unique. It's a tough decision, I'm just bias b/c I own pastels (pic of one below).

Anyhow, whatever you choose will be a wise investment. Choose what you like best. And make sure to post a pic of whatever you get to show him/her off

Good luck, take care

Michael

KoenigsPythons

n/p

N/P
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Michael
KoenigsPythons

Hello,

I can clearly see what a Pastel looks like in general (they are beutiful), but what else is there to this type of morph. Do they keep that awesome coloration into adulthood or do they lose most of there luster and become faded. Also, is there other things to look for on a Pastel othere then the bright colors? How does one judge 1 pastel from the next?

HOOPY

I would go with a pastel personally (I have 4) for a few reasons; they seem to hold the key to a lot of new morphs. They are 1/3 the price of a Mojave, and in my opinion, much more beautiful. Also, to clear up a previous post, the Mojave is also co-dominant, which means when you breed a pastel OR a mojave to a normal, half of your clutch will be the visible morph, no hets here. Also, your question regarding what to look for in a pastel, I'm assuming you mean how to tell a pastel apart from a high yellow jungle, which, incidentally, MANY so-called "breeders" are selling on KS classifieds as jungle pastels. There will be no black dots or lines on the labial (underbelly) scales of a jungle pastel, there will be with a jungle, or a pastel, or a high yellow...etc. The head of a jungle pastel will also have purple-ish look to it. Trust me, you'll know when you see it. Lastly, the eyes of a jungle pastel are silvery, and slotted vertically. You can get in ground-floor with a good 1.2 pastels, for the same price as one mojave, so you would be producing years earlier, and try for a super-pastel.

Pastels! Like someone already said there 1/3 the price. Plus they IMO are slightly more appealing, I LOVE the eyes! Also like already stated you could get 1.2 for the price of one mojave! I am really into super pastels and hope to produce some in the future, and you would make more $ off your investment if you buy 1.1 or 1.2 pastels, as super pastels are going for up to $20,000! to shell out $3,000ish and get $20,000 out of one baby, is well... worth it. If I were you I would outweigh them, but like I said this is IMHO, not yours! Whichever you choose to do, tell us and get some pics! Good luck!
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~~~ Krystal - a teenager who admits she dosen't know everything, or even close! - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

Mojave!!!! Here is why. Most people giving opinons have pastels and therefore they would say pastel. Not that that is wrong, they are just stating what they like best. They are also a little biased becuase they do own them. I do own both, and I have produce many pastels, and I am about to hatch my first Mojaves in the next 10 days. Coming from a person who has both, I think the Mojave has a lot more potential from an investment stand point and here is why.
True you can get 1.2 pastels for the price of mojaves. Many pastels loose their color into adulthood, and I have 2 female pastels that hardly look anything different from a normal. However, I do have some nice adult pastels that have kept good color and they came from a Killer Pastel father. If you go with the Pastel, make sure you pick ones that you can see what the history of the parents have produced. Go with a breeder who can show you the babies of what the Father/Mother Pastel have produced and how they turned out. That way you can get an idea of what your pastels will look like. The Super Pastel has been shown to be an incredible animal, and that is very apealing to the pastel project, but don't count on the Supers being 20G when you produce them. They will be FAR less. So, if you do go with the pastel, you will go with a proven awesome morph that has a ton of potential. NOW- the Mojave has a ton of potential. Like the Pastel, the belly on the Mojave is UNREAL. It has a greenish outline to the white belly, and the eyes are awesome. The color seems to hold into adulthood better then the pastels. I have a 2 year old male that is 1300 grams and he looks as good today as he did at 400 grams. My female is 1100 grams and looks better then she did at 400 grams. 400 grams are when Pastels seem to look the best from my experience in the many I have held back and raised. Now, the mojave is also co-dom, but there are a TON less mojaves in the world. There are soo many pastles out there, and the market is going to be very much flooded with them in the next few years. By the time you produce the Mojaves, I can guarantee the market won't be flooded with them. Being co-dominant, and the relative easy to breed balls, they will come down in price faster then you would like, but that is the way it goes. The KEY to the Mojave is all in the Super. IF the mojave has a Killer Super like the Pastel, then I think the morph is going to have HUGE potential, and there won't be that many out there so I do think you will get a Much better bang for your buck then the 1.2 pastels. However, if the Super Mojave doesn't look that good, I can't say for sure that you will make more bang for your buck then the pastels. So, I guess it is a risk and a gamble. I think it is worth playing and paying for the mojave just simply for the fact that they are much more rare. Personally I like the Mojave look over the Pastel look, but that is COMPLETE opinion. The upside of the Mojave project is Really great. Once we see other morphs in them, I think they will be extreemly popular.
Bottom line, You really can't go wrong with either. Coming from a person who has both, I would say go with the mojave. They seem to be better as adults, and they will be a adults a lot longer then the are young. Also, if the Super Mojave is a hit, you will do MUCH better with the mojave. If the SUper Mojave isn't a hit, then you will be sixes with the 1.2 pastels. Just my 2 cents. You'll have to decide what you like better. However, BEFORE you decide, make sure you see a Mojave in Person. They don't photo nearly as well as they are in person, and I guess that can be a downside to that morph if there is one. You can't go wrong with either, but if you have to choose one, I would say Mojave. Good luck with your decision. Take Care, and sorry so long. Jeremy Stone

Now let me start my telling you that I do not want this to become a heated battle or Pastels vs. Mojaves. Firstly, I would like to express my condolences for your fading pastels, seems like you picked the wrong line (I deal exclusively with the Graziani/Sutherland Line from Greg). I have a few pastels, and none of them have faded. Secondly, mojaves, as of yet, have not been proven co-dominant, as nobody has produced a super mojave. If I am mistaken, please direct me to a picture, or link. Also, in order to produce the 'super mojave' (if proven co-dominant, which, IMHO it will), you need TWO mojaves; MOST people cannot slap down $15000 US for two snakes. When you could get 1.5 pastels, for the same price, and most likely produce at least one super pastel, (as we already know they exist). Just to set things straight, I personally love the mojave, and I have the money, but would rather invest it in albinos, (I have 2) as they, to me, have more potential in new morphs. Lastly, I live in Canada, and up here, people will just not pay the kind of money you guys down in the States will for a morph, so, for the beginner breeder, who has not built up a clientele persay, it would probably be much easier to offload a few pastels than it would be to offload a mojave at 3 times that price. Finally, it all comes down to what you like. In my opinion, it's all about "curb appeal". Let me explain. If I were to have 20 different BP morphs sitting on a table, side by side, what morph would grab you attention, what would your eye be attracted to? In my opinion; the albino, the pastel/super pastel, and maybe the axanthic........I welcome a response to this message.......

My Pastel line is the Graziani line. Like I said in my post, pick a pastel that proves to not fade as much as some do. I produced some that haven't faded as much, but show me your adult pastel, and then show me a picture of it at 400 grams, and I am sure you will see a HUGE difference. If you have seen a lot of adult pastels like I have, you'll notice a HUGE difference. They do fade!!! I didn't get your other point. If you don't remember pastels were 15G just a short while ago for a pair. I would have paid 7500 for my male in 99 but I waited to get mine in 2000 and it was 3500 then. So, I don't know what your point about what people are paying now for them are. There were quite a few people who did buy the pastels back when they were 15G a pair just like where the Mojave is at now, and those people who did have made out well making supers while they can still get the SUPER price.
Also,
If you read my post further I talked about the Mojave NOT being proven to have supers yet. It is DOMINANT now, and hopefully will be proven Codomaint instead of Incomplete Dominant. No arguements, he has to get what he likes. You can't go wrong with either, but I think the upside risk is promising with the Mojave. Jeremy Stone

Some good points have been made here. I think what it comes down to is this:

1) If you want to be able to find buyers for your babies, get the Pastel. It is more widely distributed, and more likely to be found on breeders' want lists (rather than wish lists)

2) If you don't want much competition, go for Mojaves. Dump the market (sell below what the big guys are willing to take for their Mojaves) and make a killing. If there's a Super Mojave, you may just be the first to produce it. Then YOU'LL BE ONE OF THE BIG GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was at the Sutherland's house just a couple of weeks ago, and got to see the Mojaves in person, and they are stunning. I have 2.1 really nice Pastels, that I would gladly trade in a split second for a Mojave. Reguardless if they prove Co-Dom or not, they are STUNNING snakes! If they do prove out Co-Dom, and you have the money, you will kick yourself for not getting one now. Like Pastels though, there are some that look a little better than others. If you get a Mojave, get one with lots of that sulpher yellow on it, it looks REALLY nice in person. I personally would actually get a Mojave over a Clown. My feeling is all Markets are a bell curve. You want to buy your animal for the best price while it is on the rise, left side of the bell. Mojaves are on the left side of the bell, and pastels are about at the top, or maybe coming down the other side, which means there are enough to meet supply. Mojaves on the other hand are still probably more sought after, like caramels, where the supply does not meet the demand. Just my opinion, I would get the Mojave in a second!

Dave

Seems like a waste of money to get a 2nd male, unless you have 30 normal females you want to breed them with.

Jake

I did a trade for a pair of VPI pastels. A month or so after getting my pair, I saw a Sutherland male that I just thought was stunning, and decided to get it, which gives me an unrelated pair, and a second male, so I can sell non sibling pairs. I really like pastels, and decided to get the second male, which will be a good idea if the original male is a poor breeder, or if the sutherland male matures faster, and can breed one year earlier, plus like I said, I will be breeding totally unrelated animals. You never know, and a second male pastel is a decent investment.

Dave

Different name for the same thing.