Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Several months ago the NY Times ran an article about exotic species in Fla., and one of the "facts" was that the burms were breeding and outcompeting the indigos. if you had both species occupying the same acreage, would 30 or 40 slow moving burm hatchlings be a real boon for the resident indigo?
I don't like exotics where they don't belong, but it doesn't initially seem there is direct competition here. what do y'all think?
daveb

I live in South Florida and I have yet to see any real evidence of that(Burm Breeding) being so. We have escapes and some deliberate releases, but no one has ever shown me a wild born Burm or Retic or Anaconda (all of which are rummered to be breeding in vast numbers in the glades).

If it were happening it would be bad for all rodent eating snakes as the baby burms would be too large for baby Indigos or Kingsnakes to eat right off. Instead they would feed upon food animals that are part of the native species diet.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

there's no doubt that escaped/released exotics are indeed breeding in the sub-tropical clime that is s. florida.....amphibians especially but reptiles as well and it's only a matter of time till they begin to be found w/ some regularity i'm sure. baby pythons, boas, turtles etc. would make easy targets for adult indigos, kings and others but some will survive long enough and eventually reach an unapproachable size.......that's nature. i understand that the wild areas surrounding miami international are 'well stocked' w/ practically everything under the sun from decades of escaped imports. time will tell.....

While we do have a number of lizards established here (iguanas, basilisks, curly tails, Amevia sp. and a variety of geckos...No one I know (including my local game and Fish officer...and my local dealers that collect) knows of any breeding populations of Burms or for that matter any foriegn snakes breeding here besides bramminys blind snake. What we do see is a lot of pumped up news stories that are based on rumours...those we have plenty of....

The one real true story which has us concerned, is that over in Ft. Myers there is a breeding population of White throat monitors. Those can have serious consequences; for wildlife...and people.

As to the indigo situation, those monitors are a major potential threat in one of the few areas where indigos still occur in numbers.

Frank

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I was visiting a friend who is a big wig for FL DNR. He is one of the top herpetologists in the state. At his house, he had 3 LARGE boas that were just caught in Miami. He also told us about the burms he finds from time to time. They are there. Their impact has yet to be determined though.
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Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

The key to that point is that they were LARGE specimens. That indicates that they are most likely escapes or releases. To prove a breeding population you have to turn up numbers of netonates, or even better-a nest site with eggs. No proof there at all, as I have caught adults too.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

large adults wouldn't breed. what was i thinking?........

seems like an awfully lot of "escaped or released pets"! Babies in any population are very hard to find. When's the last time you remember someone finding a baby indigo, mole king, eastern, pine, diamondback or any other fossorial species??
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Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

O.K. Guys, I was an animal control officer in south Florida until about 97. I can speak as to what I saw then. I no longer reside in that part of the country.

At that time, we were getting about one big snake a week more or less. Lot's of burms and boas, and and balls. The largest one I personaly caught, was a burm, about 10'. Very well fed, and claimed the next day, like most. I never saw a burm less than 6'. No babies. Most are escapies, and a few are released because the owner just dosen't want to feed something that big anymore. I did not see any evidence of breeding. And if they did, they would be on the northern fringes of survivability.

However, one big burm can upset the entire food chain wherever it is.

One officer told me of a frantic caller who was yelling about a huge snake under his trailor. Upon arrival, the snake was gone, but left a track about a foot wide, and was described as dark green, with black poka dots. Guess who! The officer did not follow the track into the swamp.

I don't know if they are breeding now or not, but there are a lot getting loose. But for most, the climate still gets cold enough in the winter to cause these forigners to get sick and die. The going would be "ruff" at best. However, over time, the theory of evolution dictates that anything is possible. Look at the marine iguanas on Galapagos. If enough get loose, I supose it will be inevitable that two will meet and breed, if they haven't done so already. Later,
Tony.
Tony.

>>I don't know if they are breeding now or not, but there are a lot getting loose. But for most, the climate still gets cold enough in the winter to cause these forigners to get sick and die.

I wouldn't be too confident about that. Some of the northern parts of the range of Burmese pythons are actually pretty cool in winter, and they go up some way into the mountains. I would suspect that the climate of South FL would be just as suitable as that of the northern part of their home range.

On the other hand, in their native range, finding small pythons and boas (as opposed to big ones) is not particularly rare, so if they are not being found in FL at all, that suggests that they may not be breeding yet.

Just speculating...

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Actually Anthony, I used to find (almost exclusevly) babies of one fossorial species: Scarlet Kings. Add to that Fla and Brooks kings (of all ages)as well as any size ratsnakes just to name a few. I have haunted the back lots and canal banks of this area for more than 45 years. The peculiarity of South Florida is that we are at sea level so no species can effectively burrow out of range in Dade or Broward co. The mole king occurs further north where the geology is very different from here.

That is why I can speak with such certainty. It is inevidable that one day (soon?) it may well happen. But for now it is still speculation and a local joke like Sasquach.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Although it is true that mostly large snakes are found in South Florida within the last 2 years young of the year, juveniles, and females Burmese pythons with eggs were captured in Everglades National Park. No eggs have been found, yet. Gut contents of sacrificed pythons indicate that they are eating mammals. No snake remains have been found to date.

Make of this what you will. I don't think concern over the presence of Burmese pythons in the Everglades is misplaced. Direct evidence of negative impacts will be hard to come by and by the time they are evident it will be impossible to reverse them. The time to act is now.

Once again the presenseof eggs in a female does not prove breeding in the wild. Down here it is just as easy for a gravid female to escape or get dumped as it is for any other burm.

Not that it is not a matter for concern. We have bigger problems here (as I pointed out above)with aliens and animals.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."