Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This has been bothering me for a while now. Now we all readily accept the presence of high quality animals and breeders on this site. I admit that I would highly prefer the personal contact that would be available at a show of this magnitude, but..... Are prices lower at Daytona due to the great presence of many breeders or are prices going to be somewhat identical to the current classifieds? As a breeder, do you feel a need to lower your prices to be more "competitive at the ultimate expo or do you stick to your pricing and try your hand at salesmanship?

Tairo,
...I like to sell my snakes in person at a show. I also do not like going to too many shows. I also HATE shipping snakes. Because of this I price my snakes lower than most of my competitors at the Daytona show and also lower than most that are advertised here. I want to sell as many as possible at that one show. There are other breeders who sell lots of snakes with classified ads and still others who go to lots of shows. If a breeder likes to sell with classifieds or knows that he/she is going to another show soon they are likely to not mark prices down too much to sell at a show. I have had a table at the Daytona Expo since 1993. It seems to me that prices at that show are not as competitive as they used to be. As internet selling has become a bigger part of the snake business there is less need for breeders to sell everything at the show. There are some snakes that you will see on the classifieds here on KS.com and not see or at least not see many of them at Daytona (the biggest and best show). I think everyone who is serious about reptiles should go to Daytona every year just to meet people and see some fabulous animals. If there is something that is very different and rare it very well may be at Daytona but it also may not be there. If there is something that you are sure you want you should probably buy from a reputable seller here on kingnsake.com rather than going to Daytona hoping to find that particular snake. On the other hand Daytona is the place to go and get a first look at fabulous animals we do not even know exist.
Jeff

>>This has been bothering me for a while now. Now we all readily accept the presence of high quality animals and breeders on this site. I admit that I would highly prefer the personal contact that would be available at a show of this magnitude, but..... Are prices lower at Daytona due to the great presence of many breeders or are prices going to be somewhat identical to the current classifieds? As a breeder, do you feel a need to lower your prices to be more "competitive at the ultimate expo or do you stick to your pricing and try your hand at salesmanship?

you are unlikely to find anywhere else. Regardless of whether or not you want to buy, it's fun spending the whole day looking! Then spend the night time hours having a few drinks and meeting everyone..................
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Come see us and our friends at the

Jeff has made a lot of good points, especially about shipping in Summer. Here's some of my thoughts on your questions..

The reptile shows and sales used to be the place to go to see the best or newest animals, meet with your peers in the hobby, learn and exchange information and generally have a good time. Now, about the time the shows really started proliferating, an idea got started that reptile shows were the place to go to get a deal. Many shows are promoted like flea-markets.. BEST DEALS, LOWEST PRICES.. And like beanie-toy swap meets if you do the rounds you'll see the same item sold, traded and re-sold. I do not think this serves the interest of the buyer or the breeders.. the result has been, in many cases, lowered quality of products.. and we're not making and selling toasters here..

Where can you get the better price? I think if you have money to spend and you shop around among the people offering the animals you are wanting you will find someone or two willing to make a substantial discount.. and you don't need to go to Daytona or anywhere, just use your telephone and computer. Those same rules apply to shopping at shows. But some of the shows (Daytona is one) have managed to keep a lot of the original flavor and spirit of a real Reptile EXPO. The experience of participating is worth something in itself, whether or not you end up with the absolute 'best deal'..

Now I want to take a swing at the growing emphasis on price as the dominant deciding factor in making a purchase of a Boa or another animal. I see in many instances that a major source of pride (or disappointment) people may have in their Boa is how good or bad a deal they think they made.. New buyers may proclaim "I scored!" or "Ha Ha! They didn't know she was gravid!", and more of the same.. applause and congratulations follow. Later, I suppose, when the owner sees a similar item for less than they gave (as inevitably happens).. they no longer take as much pride in their acquisition!

Everybody likes to save money but in this case those people who proclaim that they WON, are saying also.. 'I beat that guy'. I know there are many dealers out there, some bad, many great but my point of view is this "That guy", they just beat up is not a used car salesman or an insurance agent, he or she is a fellow herpetoculturist and taking away from them is taking away from everybody. Think of it this way also.. after you SCORE on a $100.00 amelanistic boa, how long do you think it will take before that becomes the new price? So if money is your main concern you are doing yourself a disservice by beating down a breeder on a price..

Well heck, Gus.. what's wrong with saving some bucks? Nothing at all! it is just that in 12 years of keeping and raising a Boa the $25-$50-$100.00 or even $500.00 you saved is going to be completely unimportant compared to the looks, health, vigour, fertility and so on of the animal.. Price is the last thing to consider.

The way this goes is all up to us.. either we demand quality, healthy animals and pay the price or we go Wal Mart and get the cheapest that might do.. discarding our purchase when the store or the factory can't fix it or find the missing parts.. and remember we ain't makin' toasters.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I personally do not sell at any shows. I hate shipping snakes too, I sit and worry about them in transit all the time and normally check the tracking numbers so often that I notify the buyer that the snake is there before they let me know that it has arrived ok.
But even with the shipping issues with internet sales I feel the risk to my animals at the shows far out way the risk to my animals during transit, this is what I mean….
Not to mention the theft that is possible there, and my hats off to Ben and all the others that caught the recent scum that was trying to steal his animals at the last show (good job, I just wish I was there to help!) But the risk of trying to keep the right temps in an heavily air conditioned arena for two days. The risk of spreading IBD and other germs from all the other animals present at the show. The risk of so many people handling so many different animals with out washing their hands in between animals, The risk of Mites, ticks and other parasites, escapes that can result in either trampled or lost forever animals.
With these risk to my animals there are also other problems with the shows that keeps me from setting up a table there,
Without access to paypal, I can’t accept credit cards. I’m sure there is a way to do so, but to be honest I am too small to get one of the wireless machines and they don’t work all that well in the arena, I see the guys with them walking all over the place looking for a signal. Also seeing it is during the weekend, there is no way to confirm the checks, so many of them are bogus and for that many do not take checks either, that leaves cash only for the transactions and a lot of people do bring that much cash with them.
Then there is the people who always want to haggle about the price of the animal. I know this is part of the game and I would do much better if some one would just say “I really like this snake but I can’t afford $350.00, could you do better for me” I can relate to that kind of person and I am always willing to work with them, The ones that want to haggle because they indicate that the snake is not worth that much or the guy three tables up has “the same snake” (impossible, cloning has not yet hit our hobby) for $100.00 is the ones that get under my skin. If the snake is not worth it, why do you want it and if the guy three tables up has the same snake for $100.00 less go buy it from him and leave me alone! Ok now you see my real problem, people, they just stink and I prefer snakes LOL!
I prefer to work on line and work with people on payments and over the phone, there is not the pressure of the show to make the sale or to clear out the animals.
You also are not competing with the big dealers who instead of working in top quality animals, they load the floors with “farm raised” babies at $35.00 (yup I saw the Nics being sold at $35.00 2 years ago). So now not only are you dealing with the other quality captive bred animals, you are also dealing with the cheap imports that were never supposed to be allowed at these type of shows, hence the name “Breeder’s Expo”.
You don’t see a great deal of the top end animals there, some of the breeders bring a few and many of the newest animals are displayed there too, But I think Kingsnake is by far the superior venue for selling top end and collector quality snakes.
Ok I am done ranting!
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I think prices are generally lower at a show. You have the advantage of seeing the animal in person, and shipping is not necessary, although getting the animal home from Daytona is a dilemna if you have flown there. I like internet communication and sales, though, and it's much easier to negotiate via email than in person where the emotional responses on both sides are seen.

As a breeder,I'm just getting started with boas. I've been breeding and selling colubrids for several years. I've never sold at a show. If I had to sell my stock at a show, my prices would be higher. In order to cover the expense of a table, hotel, travel, meals, etc. I would have to raise my prices.
As a buyer, I like attending the shows. I like to see the variety of snakes available, meet other breeders, pick up supplies, etc. The cost is almost equal to shipping or having a snake shipped to me. The price of gas, parking, admission, and a meal for one day at a show comes close to the cost of shipping. On more than one occassion I have passed on going to a show because just a week before, I made my purchase online.
Never been to daytona but as far as the local shows here in So. Cal., I can offer equal or better stock for less.

The only bad thing about classifieds is you can get severely ripped off.At a show you can at least inspect what your buying.You can get the best of both worlds and find out if the snake you want is going to be at any show.Win,win.

I've posted before about being ripped off. Twice I have been ripped off that cost me something that no breeder can replace or make up for. Time!!! There are more ways to get ripped off than paying for a reptile and receiving nothing. Making your purchase at a show does not guarantee that you will not be ripped off. When a breeder mis sexes a reptile and then will not correct the issue. To me that is being ripped off. I can't get back the time that I spent raising that stock only to find out that a female is really a male or vice versa.
I purchased some hets from a well known breeder, paid the premium as most of us do for hets from a "Reputable Breeder" with a "Guarantee". The female was sterile, presumably from excessive inbreeding. I spoke to him at a show, not confrontational, just plain matter of fact but direct. "Oh, maybe it's your male. Maybe he's the problem". That's fine, the male is yours also was my response. Besides the fact that the male bred with another female from the same breeder and produced. My problem was with one female only. He would not correct the issue and insisted that I try the next year just to be sure. Basically, he did nothing, did not stand behind his stock or his gurantee. No she did not produce the following year and was sold as a "Pet".
The other time I was ripped off was with wrong gender and the purchase was online. Again, the breeder did not stand behind his guarantee. He was suddenly out of stock on that morph but I could pick another morph, less valuable. Gee, then I can produce hets. By the time I was able to get the right females, produce and sell, the market changed so much that I barely recovered my expenses.
When you read the ads and terms in the classifieds or at the show and the breeder does not stand behind his guarantee, they are ripping you off.