Reptile & Amphibian Forums

a friend of mine has an eastern milksnake baby (approx 8-10"that isn't eating well... he asked me for help and I told him I read that they will eat rodents, crickets, or small fish... he hasn't had any luck (tried pinkies, baby crickets, and tiny goldfish)... he said it may have eaten a cricket or two but he doen't know for sure, he hasn't seen him eat at all. any help would be appreciated.

the snake is in a 30 gallon tank with a 100 w reptile bulb on top of one end... I think it is barely warm enough... low 80's in the warm end I would guess... I need to check to be sure.

I have a monitor and very closely check his temps... but I don't know much about snakes... so please help.

Baby eastern milk snakes feed on snakes. Some will feed on small pinkie mice, but their main prey while they're small are snakes. It may also feed on a small lizard or skink.
Michael
Michael's Place

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http://www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Helmz614@aol.com

I'm sure they have a slightly different diet in different parts of their range but the ones I find all feed readily on rodents. Give up on the cricket idea. I don't know why so much literature says that. I'd like to know how many times an insect has been found in an eastern milk's belly. I would try live or frozen/thawed pinky mice. If all else fails I'm sure it would take a skink. I would also move it to a MUCH smaller enclosure. Personally, I keep snakes in deli cups at that size. I find they feed much better that way. Also there is no chance of escape.
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

I live in NY and see many eaterns and keep a few here are some tricks Iv'e used
1 scenting a live pinky mouse with another snake
2 same thing as above but with a F/T mouse
3 wild types of mice
4 Iv'e had a few stubborn ones eat salamanders
5 try a smaller mouse
wayne

well it isn't eating frozen pinkies (thawed of coarse) so should I try a small lizzard? I can readily get anoles for $3-$4 but I don't know of anyother small lizzards I could find cheap... as far as scenting goes... I don't know where to find feeder reptiles of any kind... no feeder snakes or lizzards anywhere around here... I live near Flint, Mi... my friend caught the baby eastern milksnake in his yard... and has now given it to me (he knows I've kept monitors)

I am a biology major at the university of Michigan, I hope to one day specialize in herps and other exotics. I wish to learn as much as possible so once again, I appreciate all the help I can get.

PS should I be worried at all about being bitten... I haven't tried to hold the snake yet to keep it's stress level down as much as possible.

oh yeah... what would this snake eat in the wild here in mid michigan? there are few snakes and no lizzards for them to feed on... any clues? I just assumed rodents and insects... but again I am very much new to snakes. Thanks

You shouldn't really be worried about the snake biting, it is still small, but if it gets a good grip on you it will most likely start chewing. In the wild up there, a small eastern milk snake will likely eat other snakes and/or very small rodents. Just because you can't find any snakes to feed it, doesn't mean they are not there. You would also need a baby anole to feed a small eastern milk snake, which may be hard to provide as I do not of pet stores selling baby anoles. They may also eat small frogs, but I'm not 100% sure on that. In the wild, the main thing they eat when they are babies are other snakes.
Michael

You could try salamanders, worms and feeder rosies as well.
Michael's Place

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http://www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Helmz614@aol.com

actually 5 Lined Skinks are indigenous to Michigan (I live in Port Huron), but boy are they hard to find, and even harder to catch. Any that I have found have been under old railroad ties and other debris near railroad tracks and yards.

Well first thing first for you:
Smaller Cage 5-10 Gallon with secure lid

Make sure you have this in the cage:
A good substrate (dirt/leafs)
Many Hides
Small waterbowl

Food to try:
Red Back Salamanders
Small frogs/tadpoles
Baby Garter Snakes/Watersnakes

I live in northern ohio and for thoughs that don't know there are almost no lizards here. I left some tips that may help you.
REMEMBER: IF THE POOR THING DOES'NT EAT:

LET IT GO
Jeremiah's Reptile Garden

My dad just caught a baby eastern milk at a construction site. It was in the middle of a concrete floor. He kept it in a Pringles container by the heater to keep it warm. Suprisingly when i offered it a pinky it lunged from my hand and grabbed it(my dad had had it for two weeks and didn't feed it anything). I moved it to a 15 qt rubbermaid container. I tried feeding it the other day and it wouldn't eat, so I put the snake in a deli cup with the mouseand placed it half on the heating pad, then i put his cage in front of it so it would feel secure, 5 min later i checked and he was eating it. Mine is very nippy he will be crawling up my arm and just bite me for no reason, its funny cuz i barely feel anything. LOL. Even if they did eat crickets they don't have near the nutrients as a pinky, i would say that 10 crickets would be equal to one mouse?

A.J.

Please, post when you get it eating....just so we know. I usually have at least one tiny baby E. Milk given to me each spring. Right now I have a tiny, tiny baby (couple grams and 5 inches) that was right on my front steps. (maybe it saw the "Sucker" sign and came over) I have gotten (assist feeding) a couple 1 inch segments of mouse tail into it. Now it is refusing to bite at me, so I have one of my kids put in the tail when I open it's mouth with a peice of cardstock (like a business card/ 3X5)which I don't like to do. Some that I have started will go straight to tiny pinks or pinkie heads and some are stubborn like this one. I am hoping that after another meal or so it will decide eating is a good thing. I am also gonna try salamanders as that is a cheif small prey here (upstate NY).
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

I have raised the babies by assist feeding with liquid herp vitamin coated mouse tail sections for several months at which time live and then thawed day old pinkies were accepted.
Al Winstel

You might try a small treefrog. I think your best bet is a small snake, like a ring neck, these are generally common in the same range. Some babies don't eat even when you give then the right food. I am not sure of the cause, but its very common. I 've notice that with some snakes like the Eastern Milk 20-50% of the clutch can be this way while the rest, kept in identical conditions, eat just fine. over the years I have tried several methods to treat this, from waiting them out(bad idea) to medication(metrondiazole), which sometimes stimulates apetites, to force feeding. The best results have been from continuing to offer a variety of food while force feeding regularly, once a week. It can take up to six months before they start to take food on their own. start force feeding imediately while the snake is strong, if you wait too long the snake will become to weak to edure the stress of force feeding. When force feeding babies, I recommend using small fish like rosy reds, they go down easier and with less stress to the snake. Its better to feed two or three very small fish then to try and force down a larger one. Remember you will probably be doing it for a while, so be gentle.

A ringneck snake isn't the best bet, but a small snake of that nature is. I suggest you don't use a ringneck though because snakes have died from eating them.
Michael
Michael's Place

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http://www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Helmz614@aol.com

I haven't had that problem, I imagine it would have to do with the type of salamanders the ringnecks are eating. I suggested this snake because they are so common and easily found. Any small snake would be a good try. A baby garter, brown or watersnake if you could find one.

over the years I have tried several methods to treat this, from waiting them out(bad idea) to medication(metrondiazole), which sometimes stimulates apetites, to force feeding. The best results have been from continuing to offer a variety of food while force feeding regularly, once a week. It can take up to six months before they start to take food on their own. start force feeding imediately while the snake is strong, if you wait too long the snake will become to weak to edure the stress of force feeding. When force feeding babies, I recommend using small fish like rosy reds, they go down easier and with less stress to the snake. Its better to feed two or three very small fish then to try and force down a larger one. Remember you will probably be doing it for a while, so be gentle.

This is all good info. I have never tried rosy reds. I guess I wonder how I would get a good grip on it to begin with. I tend to do mouse tails. Thankfully I have never had an Eastern Milk go more than a couple months before taking food. Ball Pythons are bad enough! At least they are larger.
I really dislike assist feeding and would rather try other prey and get the bugger taking something on it's own. So, variety sounds good.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

I never do assited feedings on adult snakes, most of them can go for months without eating and will eat eventually. I have had ball pythons that did eat for a year and still looked good. Babies are different though, they don't have the body fat to go more then a month or two without eating and you certainly should let them go that long. Also babies that refuse to feed generally will not survive otherwise. At least thats been my experience. Even with assisted feeding they will be smaller and more sensitive then their siblings that are feeding on their own.

>>I never do assited feedings on adult snakes, most of them can go for months without eating and will eat eventually. I have had ball pythons that did eat for a year and still looked good. Babies are different though, they don't have the body fat to go more then a month or two without eating and you certainly should let them go that long. Also babies that refuse to feed generally will not survive otherwise. At least thats been my experience. Even with assisted feeding they will be smaller and more sensitive then their siblings that are feeding on their own.

I have never assisted adults either. I have only used it on nonfeeding neonates. And even then I like to exhaust all possible prey possibilities first.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

I have been very cautiously trying to assist feed this snake... I can get a 1/2 inch piece of rat tail into it's mouth but he won't swallow it... Please help... If he doesn't eat this weekend I will let him go (It's been about 3 weeks since it was caught) I like the little guy and don't want to see him die.

Right now he is in a tall opaque pitcher sitting on a cobra heat mat... inside are a rosie and a couple pieces of rat tail.... I'm going outside now to try to find some earth worms to put in there... how long should I leave him in there?

like I said... the more help the better... thanks a lot everyone.

>>I have been very cautiously trying to assist feed this snake... I can get a 1/2 inch piece of rat tail into it's mouth but he won't swallow it... Please help... If he doesn't eat this weekend I will let him go (It's been about 3 weeks since it was caught) I like the little guy and don't want to see him die.
>>
>>Right now he is in a tall opaque pitcher sitting on a cobra heat mat... inside are a rosie and a couple pieces of rat tail.... I'm going outside now to try to find some earth worms to put in there... how long should I leave him in there?
>>
>>like I said... the more help the better... thanks a lot everyone.

If it were me I would try about an inch at least of mouse tail...the length seems to trigger eating sometimes. Though the one I have now did try to take the tail in to the tip and then regurg it. So I held her calmly until it went in and not out and she was settled.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

DrGonzo,

If you still require guidance regarding an assisted feeding, you may write to me at: Ohannah2001@yahoo.com

I have a great deal of experience in persuading "problem starters" to feed. Getting a meal into your milksnake should be no trouble at all. Drop me a line.

Cheers,

Peter

I would try the deli cup trick, works for my fussy honduran, put the snake in an appropriately sized deli cup with a little paper toweling, and the f/t fuzzy, and put it back in the cage for a couple hours. Otherwise, try buying an small anole from a pet store, granted their more expensive, but it's worth a try as a last resort.

try guppys, they have worked for me before, also try mouse or rat tail pieces, you may need to force a piece in to get him started. Don't give up, I've had them take up to 4 months to start eating.

you've had an 8" baby go 4 months without food? I didn't think they would live that long... I got the tip of a rat tail (less than 3/4 of an inch long) in its mouth 3 times and each time he spit it out... once he had it in his mouth for over a minute and spit it out... what do you think? is that normal?

>>you've had an 8" baby go 4 months without food? I didn't think they would live that long... I got the tip of a rat tail (less than 3/4 of an inch long) in its mouth 3 times and each time he spit it out... once he had it in his mouth for over a minute and spit it out... what do you think? is that normal?

As I said above, try longer and thinner tail bits, and work them in past being just in it's mouth. Slowly and gently work it down. To me thrashing and spitting it out is entirely normal. A baby is a very vulnerable thing. A baby with a meal in it's stomach is even more vulnerable. It's instinct tells it not to eat when it thinks it will have to run. This is why WC snakes will regurg their last meal on you when you catch them sometimes. You are trying to get it to do something very contrary to it's wiring.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

I agree with Sonya, I've had three different kinds of baby snakes be stubborn feeder. I use about one an a half inch of mouse tail, wet the tail with water and *gently* force feed in about an inch of tail, then gently put them down and let them finish on their own. You might have to do this 4 to 10 times,whatever it takes, also try braining small f/t pinks, take a straight pin and insert threw the nose cavity to the brain, then squeeze the head and you will get some fluid through the nose, smear it on the face, and then offer. This works real well, even try it first.
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rbichler

Ive had the same problem in the past. If you can find a baby garter snake you can feed it to the milksnake. Then get some frozen pinkies - thaw them out. rub a baby garter snake on the pinkie and give that to the milksnake.
You can also try force feeding a thawed frozen pinkie. cut off some body parts. liek the head or back and gently force in the milksnake. If this fails release the milksnake.

good luck

mark