Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been reading posts for a long time here. Breeding by mistake, Breeding just to see what happens, Breeding for the sake of Breeding, and Breeding because you don't want to separate male from female. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION and not directed at any one person unfortunately recently it is a great number of people. Breeding properly takes planning, vet visits, money! Lot's of it, and an enormous amount of time to do it properly. These dragons are becoming endangered due to the practices of people who don't research, listen, or plan properly. Buy one dragon, buy another cause the first one is lonely and then start to ask question when eggs are falling from the a**. Keeping male and female together leaves an opening for a too young female to lay before she is ready. With practices like the one's I have been reading about how can you take care of 40+ babies when the parents are not being cared for properly themselves. It seen to me that people "wing it" until there is a problem, and then cry for help. Please, Please read up on general care and especially breeding. There are many, many web sites, and knowledgeable people on this forum, ask question first, research, and be ready! Let's keep our Beardies health first priority. Sorry for the ramble but I needed to get this off my chest

>>I have been reading posts for a long time here. Breeding by mistake, Breeding just to see what happens, Breeding for the sake of Breeding, and Breeding because you don't want to separate male from female. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION and not directed at any one person unfortunately recently it is a great number of people. Breeding properly takes planning, vet visits, money! Lot's of it, and an enormous amount of time to do it properly. These dragons are becoming endangered due to the practices of people who don't research, listen, or plan properly. Buy one dragon, buy another cause the first one is lonely and then start to ask question when eggs are falling from the a**. Keeping male and female together leaves an opening for a too young female to lay before she is ready. With practices like the one's I have been reading about how can you take care of 40 babies when the parents are not being cared for properly themselves. It seen to me that people "wing it" until there is a problem, and then cry for help. Please, Please read up on general care and especially breeding. There are many, many web sites, and knowledgeable people on this forum, ask question first, research, and be ready! Let's keep our Beardies health first priority. Sorry for the ramble but I needed to get this off my chest
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

I have to agree with this because I see people breeding animals with a complete lack of knowledge and all the wrong reasons more frequently than I care to think about. They never take into consideration that some animals should never be bred due to genetic defects or due to poor health. They don't realize and are to ignorant to educate themselves on the proper care and maintenace of the parent stock. They think that it is cute and adorable until they find themselves in over their heads and contact every breeder that they can find to acquire the correct information and after being told that the animals require medical attention due to their ingnorance they simply state "but I don't have the money to take them to the vet". If you don't have the money to properly care for your animals you surely shouldn't be breeding them. If you don't have the proper knowledge on the species that you are breeding you shouldn't breed your animal. If you can't afford to feed and care for the entire clutch for an extended period of time you shouldn't breed your animal. If you think that you are going to make a few fast bucks breeding your animal then you are out of your mind. I have been breeding birds for a very long time and it took me years to break even and more years to show a profit. It is constant work, care and worry. Breeding dragons isn't that much easier and should be done with proper planning and consideration for the animal. Learn about the animal you plan on breeding first, then talk to breeders about their horror stories and then decide if it is something that you and your animal are up to. Always put the care and safety of your animal first. Forget about making a profit as it isn't going to happen in the first year no matter how hard you try. Expect a loss and then decide if you still want to do it.

I wish this could be pinned to the top of the forum for everyone to read. It's unfortunate that the good posts sink so fast with all the rest.

I'm so tired of feeling like I need to lecture half the reptile owners I talk to. I almost want to just type up a whole essay on it then copy & paste for every poster I see with irresponsible breeding attitudes.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

I'm going to be a little controversial here and make some responses in regard to your rant on breeding. Sure enough, people who have or no little knowledge or experience with beardies should not attempt to breed them. Several of your statements, like many, from some of the "professional breeders" on this site are not accurate, however. Beardies are not endangered. No breeding activity by people in US has any affect on them becoming endangered either (beardies breed readily in captivity and are no longer being taken from the wild--legally at least).

I've seen several rationales from breeders for others not to breed dragons, but in many cases it comes down to the bottom line for those breeders. They don't want others to breed because it may affect their business. Yes, breeding dragons takes special preparations, attention and care for the reptiles. Still, posting inaccurate info. on the amount of food baby beardies need does no one any good. I've raised a couple of generations of dragons and still I don't consider myself an expert. During that time, I've learned things as I've gone along and yes I've even made mistakes. Does this mean I shouldn't have breed beardies? No, it doesn't.

Now, for some examples of bad info. "Baby beardies will eat 100 crickets a day." This mostly used as a scare tactic by breeders. They're trying to intimidate would-be breeders with the idea that having some baby beardies will eat the owner out of house and home. Sure baby beardies eat lots, but I've never seen a beardie of any size eat 100 crickets in one day, let alone every day, day after day. Keep in mind, some breeders try to power feed their animals so they can sell them very quickly. Baby beardies should be provided food at all times but they don't need to eat that level of crickets (mix in some veggies). Power feeding is actually dangerous and unhealthy for animals (all animals, not just beardies). Don't always believe the hype. The suggestion to read and research is solid. As many have stated you will see conflicting info. as you do this.

Morphs. Morphs are all the rage with beardies and leopard geckos and several other types of reptiles. Why are they the rage, well mostly because they're different and they have that wow factor. The other thing is breeders can charge lots of money for them. If you want to talk honestly about morphs they're not very good for the hobby. Often they bring the wrong people into the business (people trying to make a quick buck). Morphs also encourage in-breeding. I'm not saying that peoople shouldn't breed for morphs entirely, but to those would-be breeders and buyers I'd like to say that there's nothing wrong with a normal beardie. They're beautiful as is.

By the time my baby beardie was 2 months old he could pack down 60-80 1/4inch crickets in less than ten minutes. Now at 5 months he eats some 80-100 1/2inch crickets in less than ten minutes. Yes he gets plenty of salad in the morning, and no I'm not power feeding him. He is just a big eater and a fast grower.

I am not a breeder so I could care less about compitition. I tell people that beardies can eat up to 100 a day because some of them DO, and unexperienced people planning on breeding them need to know that.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

No breeding activity will have any effect on wild populations, whatever breeders screw up with the species domestically in the US will stay screwed up because there will be no new stock coming in to help correct it. Look at all the problems with purebred dogs as an example. They have more genetic problems than any species because we humans think that we know it all and selectively bred them for thousands of years, through the years we have mutilated them, Mutts have far fewer medical problems. Let’s not forget to mention that the stock in the wild is much larger and overall healthier because the weak do not get the opportunity to breed due to natural selection (survival of the fittest).

Uneducated or ignorant breeders have a tendency to breed crap because of the all mighty dollar. I have seen this pattern repeatedly by “Hobby Breeders” mostly; but those that are considered “Top Breeders” fall into this category more often than not. “Hobby Breeders” are more likely than any other breeder to breed their beloved pet because of a human emotion that has been labeled as love and forget that it isn’t a specimen that would get the opportunity to breed in the wild because of certain genetic weaknesses that would prevent it from surviving long enough to breed in the first place. But yet people go and decide let’s breed Fido that’s a wonderful idea, who cares that he’s a little small and has a tumor but he’s such a sweet dog.

You are right I don’t want everyone to breed animals, and this isn’t limited to dragons, but it’s not because of my bottom line, it’s because “most” people breed crap and then there are a few that expect me to help them save the babies by having me stay up ridiculous hours trying to correct a digestive problem that they created by not knowing what the hell they are doing in the first place and breeding animals that were completely unsuitable together (birds specifically) and then selling this stock for next to nothing (after I save it, to another “Hobby Breeder”). This crap then gets bred by this new “Hobby Breeder”. This crap gets bred in order to produce more crap and so on and so on until you have an animal that looks like it is ready to drop dead any minute or in most cases does, usually after it is sold to some poor sap, that hasn’t any clue as to what a healthy animal should look like to begin with (Ignorance again) and usually as a birthday present for their kid.

The general public when buying animals as pets buys the cheapest and least suitable animals for breeding and then a year down the road thinks that it is a great idea to breed them. I have sold birds to people that have been interested in having them as pets, they have been sold as strictly pet quality at a reduced price because they were smaller than I would have preferred or had problems as babies that didn’t make them grade A animals suitable for breeding. Two years down the road these animals that I sold as non-breed-able stock because of these issues are being bred by people that decided it would be a great idea and it would be just adorable to have all those beautiful babies.

You want to breed fine but don’t breed crap and don’t call me at 3 in the morning because your baby (bird in this case) is sick because you fed the formula too cold and too thick and your temps are off and you want my opinion because I will tell you to go to the vet. Most of the time I get the calls instead of the vet because I don’t charge people $60 to just walk in the door like the vet does and I myself have been stupid enough to care by helping them.

I have seen a “Hobby Breeder” selling babies from a pair of Macaws that had Tumors all over their bodies because they got them for next to nothing and to top it off they were selling the babies for top dollar, these animals should never have been bred in the first place. What makes me think that this is limited to birds?

Crickets - I go through about 300-600 crickets a day feeding 30 babies (that’s 10 to 20 crickets per animal), let’s not even get into multiple clutches. They get greens and pellets besides. That’s 2,100-4,200 crickets a week per clutch of 30, you do the math. These are animals that are being held for breeding and not animals that are being held for sale, I want them to be healthy and am not in a hurry to have them grow to any pre-specified size in any set amount of time, I just want them to be healthy and have a good start. Then add what the adults eat in a day and multiply by 7 then 30 and see what number it is you come up with. Power feed? You make it sound like they are being rammed down the animal’s throat by force. They are hungry they eat if they aren’t they don’t, it’s that simple. Babies need to eat and it isn’t healthy to deny them one food in our preference of another at the expense of their growth. They will survive on less but they won’t thrive.

If you want to sit there and encourage the practices outlined above then no I don’t think that you should be breeding. If you purchased stock that was suitable for breeding to begin with instead of just breeding your loving family pet that isn’t suitable then yes perhaps you would make a good breeder. If you go out of your way to get the right info and try to work with someone that REALLY has a clue then maybe you can be a good breeder and I would encourage you or anyone with this attitude. I just know too many breeders that are too busy to be bothered in getting the correct info and are too stupid to realize that the breeder they are getting the info from is someone that is just winging it themselves. Then they sit there and tell me "but so and so said".....and it makes me furious because I usually know who so and so is and I usually know if they are morons or not.

I have seen too many animals die because of breeders that are too cheap and too stupid to find out why several of their animals died within a week of one another. They think that it was their time to go or don’t want to spend the money on a necropsy. They continue to breed these infected animals and sell them to the general public so that the disease spreads and kills more animals. If I sound angry and pessimistic it is because I am. I have been a breeder as far back as I can remember and have no tolerance left for stupidity and ignorance.

It never feels good to rant, I know, but I think it's great that people like you share these experiences. Thank you for that.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but some of rants are over the top as is the scare tactics commonly used on this forum. Most beardies do not eat 100 crickets per day. Baby beardies do eat a lot, but people throwing out that magic 100 crickets per day number is false and misleading. How is it helping anyone to promote false eating numbers?

I have never sold an animal, so your attack on breeders means nothing to me. Inbreeding does hurt the gene pool and you do see examples of defects far too commonly. This is mainly because breeders are trying to make morphs (which if you read my post, I'm pretty much against).

I don't think that you should be selling less than breeder quality animals (regardless of price). If you're selling animals as "pet" quality only then I have to say your part of the problem. You should never sell an animal that isn't fit enough to reproduce. Reading your rant, I think its time for you to get out of the hobby. I am not condoning faulty husbandry but your rants are solving nothing. The best you can do is promote what to do and provide the most accurate info. you can and hope that people have enough sense to follow it.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but some of rants are over the top as is the scare tactics commonly used on this forum. Most beardies do not eat 100 crickets per day. Baby beardies do eat a lot, but people throwing out that magic 100 crickets per day number is false and misleading

In my experience 100 crix is not out of the question. I've raised 23 hatchling to 6 week old dragons and everyone of them ate 60 crickets a day. A minimum of 20 crix 3x a day as babies. A baby beardie in the wild would be picking up bugs here and there all day long. I also agree with whoever said if they aren't hungry, they won't eat.
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www.classylizard.com

"I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but some of rants are over the top as is the scare tactics commonly used on this forum. Most beardies do not eat 100 crickets per day. Baby beardies do eat a lot, but people throwing out that magic 100 crickets per day number is false and misleading" my statement (Tazok)

"In my experience 100 crix is not out of the question. I've raised 23 hatchling to 6 week old dragons and everyone of them ate 60 crickets a day. A minimum of 20 crix 3x a day as babies. A baby beardie in the wild would be picking up bugs here and there all day long. I also agree with whoever said if they aren't hungry, they won't eat."

Your experience is only proving my point. You said your dragons ate about 60 crickets a day. 60 crickets a day versus 100 is quite a big difference. The 100 cricket a day myth is false.

So the fact that my baby has been eating easily 80-100 a day since he was 2 months old is a myth also?

I never tell people all beardies eat 100 a day, and I've never seen anyone here claim that. What I see all the time is that babies can eat up to 60-100 a day. It all depends on how much they can consume in 2-3 ten minute feedings a day. Every beardie is different, but everyone should be prepared so giving an esimate on the higher end of the spectrum is a good thing to do. It's better to expect they can eat more and have enough on hand than to give them too little. If everyone was told that babies only eat 25 crickets a day, then many of those babies would be underfed and then later the owners come here to ask us why their beardie isn't growing. It's happened here more than once. The beardie should determine how many it can eat, not the owner.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Kephy,

Why are you trying to pick a fight with me? Most bearded dragons do not eat 100 crickets a day. If they're the proper size for the dragon, its probably about half that. People on this board like to exaggerate the amount their dragons eat and also the rate that they typically grow. I'm well read on dragons and I have years of personal experience that tells me that the 100 cricket per day dragon is a myth. I'm not calling you a liar. I'm not singling you out. I'm just telling the truth. I've seen many breeders on this board (I'm not talking about you Kephy) try to perpetuate the 100 crickets a day to try to discourage people from breeding dragons. If someone wants to discourage people from breeding fine, but don't use exaggerated numbers to do it.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, tazok. I simply disagree with you, and am stating my reasons why. So far neither of us have resorted to ugliness or name calling and I think that's a good thing for a healthy discussion.

I've been frequenting this forum for a long time and I am also well read on the subject. I also know a few of these people quite well and I know they have only the best intentions in mind, so when I see someone accusing them of exaggerating for less than sincere reasons I feel it's necessary to stand up for them and state what I know to be true.

You and I obviously both have very different experiences but we both have knowledge in this area and I think combined everyone here can learn a lot from each other. So far all I've seen you do since you showed up is dispute what the regulars have to say and accuse people of exaggerating for dishonest intentions. Rather than challenging the people here who put so much time and care into helping people, it would be so much better for everyone if we just shared our experiences and combined develope a more suitable way to answer people's questions.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Kephy,

Not trying to be mean, but even your past posts show that 80-100 is too high.

"Babies should be allowed as many crickets as they can eat in 10 minutes, 2-3 times a day. So 60-100 crickets is more like it. They really pack em down, and they need all that protien to grow.

The best thing to do is buy crickets online, it's a lot cheaper. I get 1000 and they last 2 weeks."

Do this math on this and you get 71 crickets per day. That's a lot, but then you say you have two dragons. That brings the number down to 35 a day (and this assumes that no crickets die in those two weeks).

I'm not taking it as mean. It's enthusiastic of you to go out of your way to compare my posts for accuracy, but you can't assume you know everything about my situation from that.

First of all, my beardies are very different in size. I order a completely different shipment of larger crickets for my adult. The 1000 I order every 2 weeks is only referring to my baby dragon.

Secondly, my baby eats a slightly different amount every day. Sometimes he gets full and stops before the 10 minutes are even up, and sometimes he eats like a cow and wants more when I'm done. More recently I've run out of crickets before my next shipment and I have to run to the petstore for a few to last me until it arrives. Just lately he's hit another growth spurt and the 1000 is running out after one and a half weeks, so just today I ordered 1500 instead of 1000. He's not a monster dragon either, he's actually quite average in size.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

n/p
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www.classylizard.com

100 appropriate size crickets between the dragon age of 2-3 weeks to 3-4 months is not a scare tactic, most babies we have raised will eat that, plus greens, veggies and pellets.

Some will eat less, some will eat more, but that is the average for ours too. None of them are fat or have health problems, they grow well and are not "power fed". They are active and eat what they want til they are full. Broken down to 2-3 meals of crickets a day(again appropiate size)... thats only like 33-50 crickets a meal and they sure can put those away!

o one said they an endangered species, but I do not think anyone including major breeder deny the fact that the genetics here are so inbreed that it has led to diminish size dragons, dragons with terrible immune systems, failure to thirve babies and other genetic problems. Clean line non-inbreed lines are rare now.

Most breeder are seeking new line or imported one, now why would they be doing that if the lines were fine here? Many decent breeder are afraid to add to their colonies here because of the inbreeding and not knowing what the past of a dragons line is. Yet inexperienced breeders keep tossing together their two dragons and looking for places to sell off the offspring and then wonder why they are getting so little or can't sell them, thats providing the eggs hatch and they babies survive to a saleable age..... all after the fact they aided in creating these babies.

I talked to a vendor out in California Saturday and they have a dozen or more calls a day from people wanting to sell clutches to them, knowing nothing of the dragons beyond the parents they breed, or even if those parents are related. Even when they do buy dragons, they pay $15 a peice for them....... that does NOT even cover the cost of the food they have eaten to raise them to a saleable age... thats NOT a scare tactic, thats a fact.

If you seriously think breeders that do get $100-$250 for their babies are worry about competition from that, so using scare tactics of wrong information, you are very wrong.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I have been watching this thread and I just want to say there are some people that need a wake up call, they need to know a worst case scenereo. Too many people are unprepared for babies. Cost of crix is just one small factor. Space and time are most important. with 5 babies to a tub and 20-30 babies in a clutch and getting 4 clutches back to back with no way to shut it off... it adds up to investing time to take proper care of them.

Cheri has raised her fair share of babies and I think being set up to accomadate babies may have forgotten just how hard it is to care for your first clutch and how it gets harder before i gets easier. I don't say this of Cheri often butI think she is being more than conservative on what it takes for a beginner raising babies.

All you need to do is read the forum and see the questions asked over and over because people don't even take the time and effort to read posts from the past week let alone read dozens of care pages. These are the people that are trying to breed BDs that I get so upset with.

sorry for the rant
Out of my mind...Back in five minutes.
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

Beardiedragon,

You are often a voice of reason on this board and I appreciate your posts, but I still don't think that exaggerating the costs of raising a few clutches of bearded dragons is constructive. If a person isn't going to take the time to properly research dragons, do you think they're going to listen to a few posts that say if you breed your dragons you're going to have your electricity bill double (Mysticaldragons said that not too long ago)? This is false. Sure if you have several cages with the appropriate lights your electricity bill will go up, but its not going to double. Yes, I've and many others have stated that baby bearded dragons eat lots. They don't, however, typically eat 100 crickets per day on a daily basis. Making these sorts of false statements does not help the cause; they simply introduce faulty information that confuses people (particularly new dragon owners that have a hard enough time deciding what's good advice from multiple, conflicting sources).

In-breeding is a very big risk in breeding dragons. If you're breeding normals, however, that risk is reduced incredibly. Most of the cases of inbreeding are done by hobbyist and professional breeders trying to come up with morphs.

By all means, people should emphasize the pros and cons of breeding dragons, but exaggerating the cons does not help, it hurts.

I’m sure this won’t be a real popular statement, but as far as an off switch, there is a humane solution to stopping excessive breeding of bearded dragons. If you can’t handle the hatchlings your dragons are producing, it’s simple to separate the males and females and then unplug your incubator and there won’t be any more babies. I’m not saying to do that to a clutch of eggs that’s already developing, but any additional eggs laid will not develop outside the incubator. They can simply be discarded just the same as if they were unfertilized.

All of the statements made with regards to breeding bearded dragons may be extremes but are not entirely false. When giving advice such as this why would you not portray a worst case scenario? And how exactly is it that this kind of advice will do more harm than good?

If someone is interested enough in breeding dragons they are going to do a ton of research and not go by what a few people on a forum say. If someone is interested in breeding and they only take the word of a few people on this forum then in my opinion they haven't done enough research anyway to breed dragons. If an extreme example is pointed out and it scares them then so be it.

When I first got my dragon I was extremely frustrated at all of the different advice I read about caring for a dragon. I decided the best way to go about learning was to read as much as I could and make up my own mind as to who's advice to take and who's not to take. One of the side effects of this is learning a lot about dragons. I think anyone who cares enough about their pets should also take this route. If someone wants to breed they'll know what they're in for if they really, really do what's necessary to gain that information. If they don't make these efforts then I don't think they should breed any animal.

With regards to the electrical bill I think Matt's statement is at least right on if not conservative. I have 2 bearded dragons and my electric bill has gone up 75%. That's with 3 MVB bulbs. You have to take into consideration those bulbs produce a ton of heat and my air conditioner runs non-stop in the summer where it didn't used to do that before I had beardies. Granted, I'm in an 800sq. ft. apt. but I can certainly see where Matt was coming from.

I think simply turning off the incubator if you decide you don't want any more babies is fine but it shouldn't be taken so lightly. These are animals we're talking about not a doughnut machine you just unplug if you don't want any more doughnuts.
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Rob Talkington

"When giving advice such as this why would you not portray a worst case scenario?"

Because its not the most accurate info, and why cause undue worry? When someone asks, how long will my bearded dragon live? Do you think people should say two weeks? 15 years? They may be true in some exceptional cases, but they're not the norm. Both are extreme scenarios that are misleading. Imagine if everyone portrayed everything in the worst case scenario. You wouldn't want to do or try anything new because someone would always be saying how this and that horror story happened to them.

I think its much more productive to give both sides to a controvsial issue like breeding and then let the individual decide if its right for them or not.

I do agree with giving both sides of the issue which essentially is what has happened here but the beginning of this thread went farther than that. It was expressed that one side of this issue were scare tactics used to limit competition. I think that statement was unfair and should have been left out. I also think initially that was the motivation for this argument.

Also, I think in some situations it is appropriate to point out only the extreme when giving advice, especially if there is a negative trend developing. For instance, take smoking cigarettes. Is it enough to just let people know smoking may cause great risks to their health? That's probably not going to have much of an impact but if you put a commercial on TV that shows a man who has lost his wife at 46 years old due to lung cancer and see the pain he's feeling, even though it's surely not the norm, it will have a greater impact on what you're trying to accomplish.
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Rob Talkington

Wideglide,

I call them how I see em, and I’ve seen some wording by some breeders that are scare tactics. I also see a lot of frustration from breeders that the price for a bearded dragon is going down and it’s harder and harder for them to make money. If it’s how they support themselves I can understand their frustration, but I don’t think that condones giving out exaggerated info. about breeding BDs.

I’m not trying to make enemies on this board, but I’m not intimidated by the fact that some people have been posting advice here for quite some time either. Some people have tried to invalid my statements because I offended their friends. This loyalty is misplaced, especially when it comes to providing info. about a living breathing thing (i.e. bearded dragons). In short, tenure on a message board does not mean your opinions are any more valid than an experienced newcomer (I’m talking about a newcomer to the board, not a newcomer to BDs). Proper care for dragons should be sacred on this board, not egos. If I see information posted on this board that I know (or strongly believe) to be false or misleading, then I’m likely to speak up and try to debunk the inaccurate info. If I post something that isn’t right, I’d expect someone with more knowledge to do the same.

>>Wideglide,
>>
>>I call them how I see em, and I’ve seen some wording by some breeders that are scare tactics. I also see a lot of frustration from breeders that the price for a bearded dragon is going down and it’s harder and harder for them to make money. If it’s how they support themselves I can understand their frustration, but I don’t think that condones giving out exaggerated info. about breeding BDs.
>In short, tenure on a message board does not mean your opinions are any more valid than an experienced newcomer (I’m talking about a newcomer to the board, not a newcomer to BDs).
>If I see information posted on this board that I know (or strongly believe) to be false or misleading, then I’m likely to speak up and try to debunk the inaccurate info. If I post something that isn’t right, I’d expect someone with more knowledge to do the same.

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Rob Talkington

Frankly I don't understand how anyone can be completely silent on a board like this then all of the sudden pop in, rip on what people say, then pop back out. And at the same time claim to have the best interest of the beardies in mind. I would think if someone wanted to help out the beardies they would put effort into making some sort of contribution. Maybe posting some advice every once in a while. For all I know you have it out for someone here and are trying to make their life difficult. I'm not saying that's the case I'm only trying point out a different perspective.

It sounds like you have been reading this forum for some time. Why not share your knowledge and help people and their beardies out for a while. Sure, any newcomer's opinions are just as valid as those who have spent hours giving advice here but I can guarantee you that when someone appears out from the middle of nowhere and starts making accusations against people's honesty and sincerety who have, themselves, spent hours helping others, the stranger from nowhere will get nothing accomplished except creating trouble. Just the tenacity alone will cause people to immediately form a negative opinion.

Stick around a while and share your knowledge if you really want to help out. Don't go accusing people whom you know nothing about of being dishonest and deceitful. I hate to say it but if you're not here to make enemies I think you may have gotten off to a bad start.

I do hope you continue to share your knowledge of beardies and make some sort of positive contribution to this board. None of what I have said is intended to offend you or anything of that nature. I understand where you're coming from but just think you were a little quick to judge others intentions.
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Rob Talkington

I am a member of this forum who doesn't necessarily post alot. Is it just me or have some people started taking the "I'm sorry to rant, but I need to get this off my chest" a little too personal? I realize that there are people out there who don't have all the facts (whether they've tried to investigate or not), and a lot of people come to these forums for information and help (I will agree that a lot of times it is too late after the fact). It seems to me (and I'm sure I'll be blasted for this) that whenever someone expresses their opinion that people here are very quick to throw out the words "idiot", "ignorant", "too stupid to know", etc. I guess I'm not really sure exactly what I'm trying to get across, except that from a reader's viewpoint, it would be nice to read forums that are posted in a information manner without trying to purposefully hurt others.

1. I don't breed run of the mill animals there are enough of those around. I stated that because they can breed doesn't mean that they should.

2. You didn't ask any advice. I don't see why someone who would want advice would be afraid as they are asking for information and not stating it.

3. I do in fact beleive that certain people shouldn't reproduce. As do many people that have chosen not to reproduce for various medical reasons. The number is irrelevant.

4. I am all for castration. Read the post again.

5. You can hold any opinion that you find dear and voice it to your heart's content and so can I, it's called freedom of speech.

6. Any animal I sell is capable of reproduction and healthy enough to do so but I still can't recommend it for every animal that I produce. I can go into specifics but why bother at this point.

1. "I don't breed run of the mill animals there are enough of those around. I stated that because they can breed doesn't mean that they should."

No one said all the animals should breed. As far as "there are enough of those around," what's wrong with a normal bearded dragon? I still see that statement as elitist.

Looks like some of the replies on this thread have been removed. I'd like to keep a portion of it on here.

”A bearded baby can in fact wolf down 100 crickets especially if they are half the size of the space between their eyes.”

I’m sure on occasion a beardie can eat 100 crickets in a day, but that’s not how much they typically eat. The 100 crickets a day has been posted so many times now, it’s like an urban myth.

By run of the mill I don't mean normal vs colored. I mean you stick your hand in the enclosure and grab any which one and choose to breed it. That's breeding run of the mill.

Please explain your 10% breeding rule you mentioned earlier.

It's not a rule it's just the way that is works out. If I go into my records and go through all the birds I have sold or held back only about 10% have been suitable for breeding. They stood out and surpassed all their clutch mates by having superior growth, excellent bone structure, excellent weight, perfect beak structure, were not picky eaters had perfect feathering, and wonderful dispositions.

I have worked with several breeders over the years and their ratio of breedable vs non-breedable is about the same give or take 5%. I am not talking about every breeder but the ones that I personally have worked with.

If you compare their stock with animals that you generally see on the market you go WOW!!!

Why would this ratio be any different with any other species? Why would you breed the runt of the clutch? Why would you want to breed an animal that was just ok? There are morphs in birds as well as dragons except they are called mutations. Mutations tend to be weaker and you have to be more selective when pairing them.

There is a mutation of Cockatiel that is called a Lutino that has been ruined by breeders because they have developed a blad spot behind the crest due to breeding run of the mill birds of the same mutation together. It is almost impossible to find one without this flaw. It only took 3 generations to ruin this lovely mutation and it will take many generations to breed this flaw out. I know certain breeders that still breed the bird with this flaw because they don't know enough not to. They don't have the experience to see there is a flaw.

i have a beardie that likes egg and chips AND eats 100 crickets a day!! beat that one

I think it's important for everyone to get their feelings out and say what's on their mind, but in a healthy and respectable manner. When things turn ugly nobody looks good and nobody wins. If we can make our points and disagree but remain civil, we might all learn a few things from each other.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Thank you! That's pretty mucb what I was trying to say, but not doing a great job of getting that out.