Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, here's the question to cut straight to the line. Does anyone have info on where the different strains of particularly yellow and greenish rats originated, particularly albinos. I've been contemplating getting into them for some time, but dreadfully hate the idea of getting a snake that didn't originate from a pure albino yellow/greenish line, as I don't like captive mixed greenishes either. Anyway, any info would be great, as I've just taken to assuming that most genetics in these snakes were introduced through other ratsnakes interbreedings. Some origins would be nice, and names of people with "pure bloods" would be grand!
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

OK...Are you refering to the natural intergrades or something the breeders produce? Greenish rats are a natural intergrade between Yellow rats and Black rats. As to the other's...which are you asking about?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yes, I know that the TRUE greenish is the intergrade. I breed locality greenishes and am trying to prove out a possible Hypo gene that a male I came across is possibly displaying, or not displaying, whichever it may be. I have no doubt that 90% of greenishes available for sale are "created" in someones home, not of natural origins. But a part of me also believes the same toward the albino greenishes, and albino yellows, that the genes to create these snakes where introduced, from another strain of Pantherophis being interbred.
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

So...You are wondering of anyone has caught a wild greenish or yellow albino? And further, you are probably wondering if any have been found in the localities you are working with? Quite a purist... Question: Once YOU start breeding these animals to take a look at the trait(s) you are interested in...aren't you just "creating" them in the same way that you seem to have a problem with???
My thoughts are...Since the "greenish" is a natural intergrade, breeding blacks to yellows is just as natural as breeding black to black or yellow to yellow, etc. And if the albino "greenish" was originally "created" by breeding an albino black to a normal yellow, for example (and then breeding the offspring back to each other, of course)...That's just fine. I have an albino greenish from Brian's stock (BHB). You might try to track him down and see if he knows anything that would be helpful to your quest. I admire your purism....It's just a few steps further than I personally would take the issue. Good luck. Duffy

Thanks Duffy...sometimes it comes to more of being "Nitpicky" than purism...lol To me it's like buying a car...for this example lets use a "natural" crossover vehicle, the Pontiac Vibe and the Toyota Matrix...essentially the same car, but putting the Vibe badging on the Matrix wouldn't exactly make it a Vibe, there are still diferences between the two. Like if an true albino yellow, or albino greenish surfaces/ed, you'd be able to tell the differences between that snake and a captive created one, like the subtle differnces that generally occure between WC strain greenishes and CB created snakes. Differences that over hundereds, thousands of years even(or more for all I know), have developed that cannot be immitaded by generally breeding a yellow to a black, or hybridizing a amel black with a normal yellow to get an Amel greenish. But yeah, it's nitpicking, I just like what I like in a snake...
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

Several years ago an wc anerythristic adult male was for sale through Mark Lucas that I had been interested in.As I learned about this snake(originally caught by Art Bass)I heard about a breeding to a wc albino also from Palm county that had occured several years ago from Don Soderberg(pic of the breeding).Don had purchased the whole bunch of babies which grew up into kinda ugly yellows,retaining juvenile pattern LIKE that of "greenish"intergrades.Anyway,Don bred the siblings back and I bought the whole first clutch of these,the parents and another "aunt".Within the clutch there were just an assortment of morphs including strage ruby-eyed albinos....but alas they came out 10.3.The first year(02) I had them I lost alot of eggs and hatchlings due to overheating during incubation.Last year(03) I was set to finally breed back the males to the sisters/parents when I left my collection with Joe ****** while I went on the road to work on the road.He was an experienced breeder but when I got back from the road my snakes were GONE,sold off and dispersed around the country(found some on tables in Daytona-OUCH!).I tracked the sales back to a pet store in VA beach which still had the albino yellows.....mostly because noone knew what they were.Again,there were only 3.1 left and a clutch of eggs which hatched out all "normal".I only had morph males,but had the mom,aunt and several sister hets/double/triple hets that were just sold off as normals at the pet store.Starting over,this SHOULD be the first breeding of morph/morph so I will at least KNOW the genetics(LOL)and try and piece together the puzzle that I started years ago.
To answer you,yes this line is PURE yellow.Retained juvenile pattern is just a bit undesirable I agree,lol.I am attempting to start outcrossing this line again to NICE YELLOW yellows,but they are very difficult to find without a trace of orange from glades influence.Remember,purity is only as good as the breeder.Jeff

You are the kind of person I was exactly hoped would answer. The kept pattern is sort of strange, as even the local greenishes here don't keep pattern as adults, nearly to adulthood, but by three to four years of age, it completely vanishes, though some are a lot darker, and keep a black "speckling" on the olive drab background color, though you sometimes have to look pretty close to make it out, as in with my "light/poss "hypo"", male that I have. He is straw yellow with brown striping, but maintains that background "speckling" that shows lineage to black rat influence from centuries ago, and I'm trying to determine weather this color is genetic or not. During this process however, is when I started questioning certain people about the lineage of their animals for "purity" reasons, and realized that a lot of people didn't know, and/or didn't care. Not knowing is one thing, but I feel that even the lowly greenish rat is a wonderful creature and not caring about them, or their lineage back to WC origins is a terrible shame. But that's just my "nitpicking" as I call it, maybe I just care too much...lol I love my snakes!...and I'm proud...
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

Because of the relative ease these are bred and cross bred many skeptics out there either have turned away from ratsnakes altogether or disbelieved their lineage....figuring every new form was just a rehashing of the old.....That changed a bit around the time the white sided gene was discovered but has lessened again.NICE yellow rats are as nice of snakes as you can get,but it is just about impossible to determine at hatching what are going to be the screamers....As far as "hypo"within this line,I think that a VERY overused and vague hope.My line of lavender albino may very well be HYPO,but there just arent enough of them yet to tell.Keep what you want,and buy from people you can trust,Jeff