Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For those out there keeping tortoises, I'm wondering what people think about this so-called condition. I've heard the term kicked around but I've never come across good information describing what causes it (if it exists at all). I have a pair of mainland stars that I picked up from a friend a few months ago knowing full well that periodically they have a clear, thin discharge that will last a few days and disappear a quickly as it came without treatment. To his credit, my friend took the pair to a vet who performed a mega-workup looking for any make or model of pathogen (mycoplasma, etc.) workup:negative. Although I wouldn't have done this, the vet recommended a course of Baytril and Doxycycline (I think) just incase there was something to treat that wasn't being detected. I'm a physician myself and as a matter of routine we don't prescribe antibiotics this easily unless there are extenuating circumstances. Anyway, the discharge stopped only to return every 2-3 months.
With all of this I'm wondering if there is any alternative explanation to this phenomenon other than infectious. Possibly allergic? I can't say that I see any pattern to the syptoms, when they come and go, type of substrate, weather conditions, etc., etc., etc. I'd really like to know what other think about all this. At some point I'd like to introduce this pair to my group without passing this mysterious condition to the others. I'd also like to avoid a more hard-core antibiotic regimen without any positive cultures. What does everyone think? Thanks...

I have seen something close in Golden Greeks. If the humidy/temperatures are not right they get runny noses. The humidity must be low even if the temps are high enough. Humidity seems to be far more critical. Seasonal changes would set them off. They are much more sensitive than "normal" greeks. I have them set up correctly now but I have to make sure all conditions stay constant or the noses start running. Perhaps it's something environmental that is specific to a certain local than needs to be adjusted. With my goldens, even watering the dig box would get their noses running.

John

That's helpful both with the stars and considering that I'm picking up some golden Greeks later this week. Thanks...

I have a greek tortoise that bubbles from his nose every now and then. He is healthy, breeds, eats well etc. It has never affected his cage mates, and this has been going on for a little more than three years. He tests fine, so i just figure its something like allergies for him. It seems to get worse when he eats.

Not just in the case of RNS. But in reptiles in general. Being a physician you may know what I'm getting at. It seems like the general public has a form of "Munchausens Syndrome" in that there is always something wrong with something. An example is what happened to me in the Hognose forum. I posted that my Eastern Hognose, that has recently been converted from toads to mice, has developed a regurgitation problem. About half of the guys posted and said they thought my hognose snake has a parasite infection and I should start it on pancur and all this other stuff. One guy suggested I feed it smaller meals and this solved the problem right away. My point is I'm glad doctors are the only ones that can treat humans. Imagine if medications were all over the counter like in Mexico. We'd all be self medicating.

Some keepers actually develope a 'feel' for their charges that developes over years of experience that is sometimes more 'on target' than the most expensive diagnostics.
For those who are just starting out here, be careful of broad statements. Remember one major point... in biology there are no 'givens'.
(yes, a broad statement, I know)
Ed

No question that you are right EJ. My point is that is even when these animals have the discharge they are still active, eat, breed, etc. The female laid several fertile clutches this season through all of this as well. In an otherwise healthy animal I wouldn't be prone to pounding them with antibiotics. I'm sure that the experienced turtle/tortoise keepers on these forums are much more experienced and better diagnosing/treating just about all of their animals ailments than your average vet that sees a few tortoises a year...

As a Doctor, you've probably already considered this, however, How about a Vitamin A deficiency? I know that a vitamin A deficiency will result in a clear, non-viscous nasal discharge. I've seen it in leopard tortoises and eastern box turtles. It clears up almost immediately (within 3 days) if sufficient Vitamin A is delivered to the animal. Start off with 10,000 iu per kilogram and see if you observe a change. Then continue treatment at 5000 iu per kilogram per week for 3 weeks. Environmental conditions should be maintained at ideal conditions, temperature, humidity, etc. I spray a dilute solution of Vitamin A on the food and apply once or twice per week and sometimes in the spring like now, they (eastern box turtles) still get sick. Hope this helps.

That's definitely a good thought. I've seen that in box turtles and leopards as well. I routinely supplement all of my tortoises and I also give all my stars essentially the same diet. If there was something specific nutritionally, allergens, infectious, etc., I would expect to see these symptoms in more animals. Each animal is unique, with a unique immune system so anything is possible. I'll have to think about that some more. Thanks for the suggestion...