Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi y'all, I don't know a thing about snakes, and I'm interested in learning. I'm reading a book on identification, and so far, it always says that the venomous snakes have vertical pupils, and the non-venomous snakes have round pupils. Is this an absolute, or are there exceptions? Thanks for your help

There are exceptions.
*Vipers* all have vertical (the "correct" term is elliptical) pupils, but, the cobra relatives (cobras, kraits, coral snakes) have round ones.

My pythons, though, also have elliptical pupils, and they are non venomous.

As a rule of thumb, though, in North America, it is a safe assumption that, if it has elliptiacal pupils, it is venomous. If it has round pupils, remember this rhyme:
Red Touching Black; Venom Lack
Red Touching Yellow; Kill a Fellow

Coral snakes usually have a black head, and the red bands touch the yellow ones. Their milk snake lookalikes usually have red or yellow heads, with the red and yellow bands separated by black.

Hope this helps!!

The other rule of thumb: If you don't know; don't touch...
-----
----------====================----------
Justin, Julie and the meangerie...
(Bobbing igs, snapping macklots, exploring ball, hungry kings, hyper grey rat, quacking tribs, hissing roaches, wriggling worms & chirping crickets)
Vermont Herpetological Society Online
www.vermontherps.org

Thank you for your reply! I was reading a book last night that showed a cobra, and it had round pupils, so there went that misconception of mine.
As far as touching, well...this is the wrong place to admit it, but I'm deathly afraid of snakes,I'll never touch one venomous or otherwise! For what that's worth, neither would I kill one, because I'm afraid to get that close
But they ARE kinda fascinating,and I'm curious about them.

Actually, this is a great place to admit that. You'll find a lot of volunteers to help you get over that fear, if you want.

Myself, I got addicted to snakes when I was 6 years old and brought a baby copperhead home to show Mom. oops....
Been hooked ever since...

But then, just about any animal I am pretty fond of, with the exception of chows... Not real fond of camels, either, but, the rest of the animal world, I love... Sometimes people fall into that category, too...
-----
----------====================----------
Justin, Julie and the meangerie...
(Bobbing igs, snapping macklots, exploring ball, hungry kings, hyper grey rat, quacking tribs, hissing roaches, wriggling worms & chirping crickets)
Vermont Herpetological Society Online
www.vermontherps.org

I imagine that I NEED to get over it, we moved a couple of years ago, and there are rattlers and moccasins where I live(the neighbors get them under the azaleas), so I'm bound to cross paths some day.

I almost stepped on a coral snake, barefooted, at Panama City when I was about 9,and by the time my family got done screaming about it...

Since then, I'll go to great lengths to avoid them.

That would tend to leave a bit of a mark...

Myself, I got held up by a timber rattler, while I was out playing by a log fort one summer (I think I was about 8 or 9). Then, of course, there was the dry bite on my bum by a copperhead when I was 16. And, at 20 (I think), I got a bite by a "nonvenomous" snake (I wanna say it was a rough earth snake). It's a rear-fanged snake, very weak-venomed, and it's mouth is so small as to not pose a threat to any but the clumsiest. He happened to catch the fold of skin on the edge of my pinky nail. He gave a full load and I had a sore finger for a couple of days. whooppee...

Still hooked...
-----
----------====================----------
Justin, Julie and the meangerie...
(Bobbing igs, snapping macklots, exploring ball, hungry kings, hyper grey rat, quacking tribs, hissing roaches, wriggling worms & chirping crickets)
Vermont Herpetological Society Online
www.vermontherps.org

Heh heh-I admire your tenacity and persistence-if I ever got bitten, I'd probably die from heart failure,LOL. I understand that the more agitated you become, the more you help to circulate the venom in your body-is that correct?

Yep!
If the venom is in your blood stream, getting excited will get it circulated faster. Thus the advice of walking, not running, for help. It also slows the flow if the bite is kept below the level of the heart.

In your case, given your urge to avoid them, you'll likely not have to worry about it, since most snakes are just as eager to avoid you.
-----
----------====================----------
Justin, Julie and the meangerie...
(Bobbing igs, snapping macklots, exploring ball, hungry kings, hyper grey rat, quacking tribs, hissing roaches, wriggling worms & chirping crickets)
Vermont Herpetological Society Online
www.vermontherps.org

"In your case, given your urge to avoid them, you'll likely not have to worry about it, since most snakes are just as eager to avoid you. "

You are correct!

They only come around people who don't like them! Do you know how much I'd give to see a wild rattler? Oh well..
(Wear shoes outside and you'll be fine, BTW.)

"They only come around people who don't like them! Do you know how much I'd give to see a wild rattler? Oh well.. "

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that that was the case,LOL.

While the previous post does point out some general trends in identification of venomous snakes, I would like to paraphrase what I heard one of the world's most famous herpetologists say once regarding the "red and yellow, kill a fellow" rhyme -
If you are trying to distinguish venomous and non-venomous snakes using a rhyme, you have no place dealing with any sort of snake at all.

I think the same could be said for the elliptical/round pupil. If you want to learn to identify venomous snakes in your area, learn to identify them. I can easily identify every venomous species of snake in the US, and I wouldn't need to look at their eyes.

There are lots of resources online or in books. Don't look for one-step shortcuts to identification. Those get people bitten and harmless snakes killed. (I wonder how many Lyre Snakes get killed by this rule every year. They have elliptical pupils, but are totally harmless to humans.)
-----
Chris Harrison

Thanks chrish, I can assure you that I'm not about to aquire a snake,ANY snake, I just want to learn about themSee above reply.

And I already knew that it wouldn't be a good idea to identify an actual snake that way-that's a little too close if you don't already know for sure. It was just a "trend" I noticed in a book, and was curious as to whether it was an absolute rule.

I've read that it has a lot more to do with whether a snake is nocturnal or diurnal, but also follows some trends with families. I can't think of a viper with round pupils or a cobra relative without them, but the colubrid (common snakes) and boa and python families are pretty much a toss up.
So... in a nutshell... no!

But there are only 4 genera (kinds) of venomous snakes in the USA, and for a lot of them the rattles are a dead giveaway.

Also, in South America, that yellow touching red rhyme would get you killed pretty quick if you followed it. Coral snakes can look like just about anything down there.

I have a really dum question now-I have two dogs, and a doggy door to my back yard. My dogs are both indoor dogs, a 17-year-old cocker spaniel and a 3-year-old golden lab. Both are used to AC, being inside, and have never been outdoor dogs(though the cocker is braver-before his health got bad, he would jump into any body of water large enough, and swim-even the beach,even freezing cold, even marshy or swampy with possibility of snakes or gators). The lab never met a stranger. If they cross paths with a rattler or moccasin in my yard(we have both), will they know to leave? Or will they try to play and get bit? I worry more about them than my husband and myself, because at least we know better. Thanks,please have patience with me, I really don't know.

Most dogs seem to have an instinct to leave snakes alone, and of course the snake will make every effort to get the dogs to leave it alone. My dog is pretty stupid about stuff like that, though. I think most of the time the snakes are going to know the dog is coming and crawl away. I guess I wouldn't really worry about it too much.

I had a friend once who had a dog named Buckshot. She was just a black dog of some sort. They are both dead now (just a side note...niether of them died from snakebite). Anyway, this dog was bitten by Canebrake Rattlesnakes twice, an Eastern Diamondback once and a Cottonmouth once. It was finally hit by a car and killed. His property was right next to mine in South Georgia where these snakes are all very common (except that the Eastern Diamondbacks are getting scarce now). This dog apparently had no fear of these snakes whatsoever. Apparently no common sense either.

Um, I don't know if that's very reassuring or not??!! So they probably wouldn't have sense enough to stay away form the snake, but if bit, they (at least the lab, I KNOW the cocker spaniel would, at his age and poor health)won't die? I'm afraid to let them go out to do their doggy "business" now!I know this seems silly to y'all, but I have a very irrational fear of the snakes, and reading about what they can do if they bite doesn't make me feel much better

I wouldn't be afraid to let them out...just sort of keep an eye on them if you really have that many snakes around. The snakes are going to do what they can to avoid you and the dogs.

My buddy's dog had a screw loose. It went looking for them. Not all dogs do that.

I always heard the same thing about venom and eye shape. But I know that isnt true, now that I have a ball python. If I read right earlier about your dogs you said that they probably wouldnt die if bitten, I think you should rethink that. I am a vet tech, and have worked in a kennel for over 7 years, so I have been around alot of dogs. But I am no expert by ANY means and am offering my opionion just as everyone else has. I think that an untreated bite COULD prove fatal. It would depend on the condition of your dog and the amount of venom injected. I have a very curious and often troublesome Cattle dog and live in a very heavily rattlesnake populated area, on the rare occasions that they are unable to scatter off before being detected, they usually put up a bit of a show, rattling and striking, but my dog has never been bitten. The display is usually enough to send her off on "easier" adventures, and the snake is out of here.

I've heard of snake fencing, but dont know anything about it, maybe it would be an option for your dogs safety. Like I said, these are only my opinions and I just thought I would put my 2 cents in.
Sorry for the long post.

Very good, Chris. I tell people that the warning colors on a traffic light touch on the coral, & do not on the non-venomous mimics. Even kids who are years away from driving age get it.
Florida's Venomous Snakes