Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a rather large, soon to be empty enclosure occupying a the majority of my dining room area. This enclosure is 8' long, 4' wide, and 7' tall over the most part. The last third or so of the cage is reduced in height to 3' tall. It was originally acquired with a large burm I adopted and readopted back out, and is currently housing my adult male silver reticulated python. We are soon to build the permanent enclosure for that snake, as well as the rest of my retics, so the cage will be empty. I've been trying to think of a good display animal in the snake world, but am coming up short of anything that is diurnal enough to really be seen all that often.

So I began to look to the Varanids. I hadn't even thought about them until a friend pointed out an ad here on Kingsnake, at which time it clicked. I believe an arboreal or at least semi-arboreal species of Varanid would suit that enclosure best. I'm looking at a smallish to medium sized lizard, max at about 5'. I'm currently considering the following species (in basically this order): peachthroat, black tree, black roughneck, blue tail, and mangrove. I'm looking at keeping 1.1 in the enclosure. Of these, which would best be suited to my conditions? Are there any I did not list that would also be an option? I realize just about all the species I listed are known to be relatively flighty and nervous, and I'm prepared for that as this is just going to be a display cage. I don't require the ability to be hands-on with my captives, as evidenced by my collection of venomous snakes.

Anyway, any ideas, opinions, or input you can give me will be greatly appreciated. I look forward to reading your responces.
-Chance

any of those monitors would be a good choice, however if you are looking for a really striking animal for a display and are willing to pay a good bit more i would recommend blue tree monitors, they are an awesome animal. Althought the demensions of your cage would be suitable for any that you have mentioned.

Sheesh. Why dont you just tell em to get some crocs?

I just wanted to thank those of you who have replied so far to my query. However, I believe I'm being slightly misjudged. No, these would not be my first Varanids. Though I do not profess to be an expert in the care and maintenance of monitor lizards, or anything really, I'm certainly no novice to captive reptile husbandry. I also am not stupid, or reckless, enough to try to acquire a salvadorii, but your concern is noted. The monitors I've so far named off have just been those that I know of right off hand which are mostly to completely arboreal by nature. I'm also no novice to caring for relatively fragile reptiles, though admittedly my experience has been with snakes. Currently I have a juvenile albigularis, and in the past I've kept (along with seemingly everyone else at some point in time) niloticus and exanthemanticus. So anyway, I do appreciate the concern, but I'm looking more for factual information regarding which of those species I mentioned and others would be best suited to the conditions I will have available. Thanks again for the information, and please keep it coming.
River Valley Snakes

And that is, the aboreal thing. I have to wonder why you would think a cage that goes six feet off the ground is called aboreal?

In reality, its not. Its simply six feet. Aboreal to a monitor is a hundred feet or more. Six feet, is very near the ground. Remember to keep things in prespective.

All species of varanids have the ability to climb. All species spend some time in trees. In captivity, they all will climb.

If your concern is your cage being used. Then its your job to include reasons for any monitor to use the whole cage. If you want a monitor to go up, then give it a reason to go up. Basking and food are two common reasons monitors go up. Most ground dwelling monitors use trees to escape water(to much). They may spend much of the wet season in trees. Many ground dwellers, are actually saxocolis(use rocks) which I imagine is also aboreal, in a fashion.

So in a odd sense, you are somehow being very naive, I mean thinking a six foot tall cage is aboreal. Its only six foot. That is very near the ground. Like in, terestrial.

Also, monitors are not faked out by placing branches in cages near the ground. They simply know its branches near the ground. I would imagine a non-reptile person would think the same. If you asked them what aboreal is, they would point up. If you raised your cage up 100 feet, give or take a bunch of feet. Then you would have aboreal.

What is a more important thing to understand about monitors(snakes too)is, they do not live "on something", but instead live "in something". They spend the vast majority of their lives in something, and only a few hours a day, for a few months a few months a year "on something". Which means, they live in holes in the ground, holes in trees, holes in rocks, etc. This is very important to understand. In nature, some species are very specific about what type of holes they live in. In captivity, they are not, beggers cannot be choosy. They will gladly use any old hole. Of course, when you the keeper give them something they understand, they do cherish it. Good luck FR

So, once you understand that a six foot cage is not aboreal, you now have way more species to pick from.

My suggestion for you is, if you have the nads, get a pair of argus. They "do it all" and they do it all with gusto. Their only drawback is, they are cheap. Some people don't like that about them. Good Luck FR

I love the pic. In your opinion/experience do Argus settle down as they mature? Mine has got to be around 6 months give or take, Jaws is about 36". I would like to be able to handle him a little bit in the future. As of now I have never picked him up. Every day or so I bug him for a little scratch or two. So far he has been coming around I had him perched on my hand today while I was scratching him on the chest. Call this a human failing as far as interacting with a reptile. I feel if he lost some of his fear of humans/captivity his life would be a little richer, just a little. Any input would be appreciated, if you feel so inclined. Thanx, Clint

Its more about you then about your argus. Its based on your understanding of them, not their understanding of you. After all, you get to teach them who you are. They are, all and always, reacting to you.

There are many reasons I stay away from taming questions. The above being only one reason.

CB monitors are not usually mean or nasty. They are just monitors. They all can become very tame. Heck we don't do anything to tame them, they are just tame. That indeed is my opinion of monitors and have have lots and lots of them.

Again, if you don't understand monitors, or even animals in general, then you will not be able to consistantly tame anything.

In a nutshell, I believe there are two main approaches. One is being the master of the animals in captivity. Those who push their will on the animals. This includes keepers who think they know how, what, when, and who monitors are. That is, predict and lay out all pertaining to monitors. There are few successful with this approach. This is characterized by those who read a book then tell the monitor what the book said the monitor is. Hmmmmmmmm how odd does that sound.

Then there are those what are partners with their monitors. I hope thats what I am. Actually I am their slave/butler/servent. I believe its better to ask them what they are/do/want, etc. Then to tell them. Hey, it works for me.

Lately, here, its like this, HERES YOUR DIRT. The keeper thinking they are now, with it. Yet, the monitor has no idea what you just gave it. Remember, dirt is good, only if the monitor says its good. Or in effect, its not dirt, unless the monitors says its dirt. In the meantime, its only stuff.

For you, give your monitor reason to like you. If not, why do you expect it to like you, WHAT GOOD ARE YOU? hahahahahahaha FR

>> My suggestion for you is, if you have the nads, get a pair of argus. They "do it all" and they do it all with gusto. Their only drawback is, they are cheap. Some people don't like that about them. Good Luck FR

I thank you for your post and insight, however this last paragraph was really all that was needed. Obviously a captive arboreal environment is going to be vastly different from an arboreal environment these species make use of in nature. In no way am I trying to say that my enclosure would be perfect. But after all, how many keepers do you know, including yourself, that build 100 ft cages? My guess would be 0. I realize you have a great love and respect for these animals and that's awesome, however your tone with people could be worked on a bit. I'm probably asking for it on this one, but from what I've noticed on this forum is, you seem to like belittleing others, almost as though you want to make enemies. Anyway, my point is that my cage is arboreal, or in other words, vertically oriented, therefore whatever species I choose to make inhabit that environment is going to need to want that sort of setup. The logical conclusion is to acquire a naturally arboreal lizard. Just out of curiosity, if you keep or have ever kept any of the more arboreal Varanids, how were your enclosures arranged?

Don't make obvious statements of logic when it's obvious that the person you are addressing wasn't meaning anything like what you are trying to point out. All it does is succeed in making you look like a jerk. That very well may be what your goal was, however.

All that being said, thanks for the argus recommendation. I'll give them some consideration.
-Chance

I do not post to make friends, that should not be confused with trying to make enemys. Is this a place I am suppose to make friends? I didn't know that. You may consider, that after ten thousand posts to nameless, faceless folks on the internet, all tone, color, and personality is lost. I know I am weird, but, face to face, you are a person. On this TV screen(monitor), your only a name.

I wish you would actually read what I said, instead of worrying about tone. The point is, no matter what angle you put your cage, short way up, long way up, on its side, sitting on its edge, The top is no more then a few feet off the ground, which is not aboreal. That was the whole point. Aboreal has nothing to do with which side of the cage is up. Thats only for pet shop sales.

Ask yourself, if you put a hollow branch from the top of a tree, on the ground, will any animal that crawls in it, think they are now aboreal? How about the opposite? If you put a hollow log from the ground, high up in a tree, will the new users think they are now terrestrial?

Aboreal is about lifestyle, aboreal means most if not all life events occur off the ground, as in up, not about which side of your cage is up. FYI, all monitor species use land, water, trees, to some extent or another, which means, none are truly aboreal, terrestrail, or aquatic. Thanks and good luck FR

Hey Chance...
Surviving Frank Retes 101, Chapter 1.

Rule number 1: Don't take anything Frank says personaly.
He's different - he knows that doesn't care. He doesn't have responses, he has "responces" which are fundamentaly different from a response that you are used to in other arenas.
We can stop there actually.

Here is the thing. I spent lots of time in the past not liking Frank very much for exactly the reasons you stated. Then I got over it. It hit me one day. Frank isn't TRYING to be an A-hole. That's just the way he communicates, it's a bit abrasive, but no offense is meant. Even though it may seem like he's going out of his way to offend you, and say things that are down right offensive - he doesn't see his posts the same way you ( or let's face it, EVERYONE ELSE) does. His typing will rub you the wrong way, but in the end it's just his style. He couldn't give one tiny little crap if you're offended, it's just the way he is. Getting mad at him, or even trying to tactfuly confront him is like shooting a Borg with a water pistol. (Believe me, I know)
If you can get around the WAY he says something, and just focus on WHAT he said, and not take it personaly, it will go a long ways I think. There's lot of insight there, you just have to put the armor on, and filter through the other stuff and take what you need. Anything else will lead to frustration.
Under all the insults, the abrasive typing, and the ever present mispelling of the word "response", I think Frank is a decent guy in the end.
Life is too short to think any different...

Cheers
Jim

Great insight on those monitors. I really like the way you went, out of the box, to come up with that method, I am glad it worked so well. To think, everybody said that would not work. Cheers FR

I really enjoy the way Frank thinks. Really it is what works for you. Something that works for him may or may not work for someone else. Figure it out with a bit of help. Don't copy someones work because there will always be difference.

John
(does that sound right>?)

With most everything, there are an assortment of ways that work, and an assortment of ways that don't work. Find the ways that work for you, your restrictions, and your monitors, and lastly your understanding. Do not pick a way that doesn't work.

Remember, as you progress, your understanding will(if you let it) change and you can move on and keep it interesting. For both you and your captives.

Actually John, how did you get this from my post? I was making fun of Jim for not talking about monitors and his concern over me. FR

Frank I've taken this Prospective from you awhile ago. You don't give straight up answers. Rather then an answer it's more of another question. Instead of giving answers you have others think for themselves.

John

I like Frank and read everything he post, no I'm not sucking up to get a argus cross cheap. lol (think it'd work? hmmm..)
I have a stack of post from Frank I read when I need to give my brain a workout, Once you figure out what he is saying , it makes sense most of the time.
I also like Frank because as Andrew once told me "you spell like Frank" If you look hard enough, you can find you have something in common with everyone.

Scott

PS. my wife taught me how
to use spell check
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

For a first monitor I myself wouldn't get any of the tree monitors due to the amount of care necessary, experience is a must with those monitors, they demand alot of specialized care. I think a rough neck would be a good choice for you. Look for dragoons posts as she has a pair, at least. An argus would do well in that size enclosure, have you considered a pair of those?
I have 1 and its a cool monitor, active, hardy requires basic care. Research alot you'll find the one thats right for you. Goodluck, Clint

I love rudicollis, they are definitely for me. They fit my life, and my personality. I appreciate mine more and more as I learn about others.
They are not for everyone. They are shy. You will see them in the mornings, and not again the rest of the day, most days. I can only speak of my animals, in saying that, they are very suspicious of strangers and new things.

If you have the cage in your living room, and have lots of family and friends, go with the argus. They are much more outgoing from everything I have read. Also very active and intelligent. From the listing of snakes you are keeping, you will delight in the boldness argus are said to have, and you will not call it aggression. Just think of them as 'exuberant'.
D.

I must say you just explained mine very well. The only time "jaws" is aggresive is at feeding time, but I like to think of it as enthusiastic. I've never been charged while "butlering" the enclosure, just some of hissing. I think generaly a misunderstood monitor. Clint

My previous boyfriend has them. A friend has them. I really would like to have them! I did many searches on the words 'argus' and 'panoptes' because I like them. So I speak from 'theory', sorry.
It's nice to hear I have the right impression of them! Have fun with yours!
D.

Thanks for the insight on the Argus monitors. Back when I was trying to figure out what "terrestrial" monitor species I was wanting to get (which I eventually settled onto a blackthroat and am very happy with that decision), I was looking at Argus. They are very neat looking monitors, and I have always heard about their interesting personalities. I hadn't considered them much for this situation because of the size I thought they could achieve. Would it be possible to house an adult pair of Argus in the size enclosure I have available? If so, I will add them to my list of considerations, as they are definitely an interesting species of monitor.
-Chance

That would be fine for a pair of argus. There is this guy (Luke cambell) who has a vey informative site on them, your post might get his attention. If I was more adept at computers I'd post a link for you. If you search the various monitor sites and look under the links you'll find his site. Goodluck with whatever you choose, Clint

Yeah you could. You cant go wrong with argus, them phuckers are as lively as it gets. Go with Argus, or Argus(90%) Flavi crosses like mine, these guys never sleep. If you're looking for one of the coolest monitors around, they will certainly keep you looking.

You can throw a 2 ft argus w a 6ft Nile and the argus will keep the nile in check.

All my adult male arguses get to be about 5 feet long and maybe 20 pounds. The females are about 3 feet and maybe 6 pounds. I keep mine in enclosures that have an 8 foot by 4 foot base (the size of a sheet of plywood). This is at least adequate, in my opinion, if not ideal.

I have some web pages that have some of my thoughts on argus monitors:
http://www.pizards.com/hbd/argus.html
http://www.pizards.com/hbd/tricks.html
I hope these can help you in deciding if arguses are right for you.

Best of luck,

Luke

I've had an Argus for about 5 months now, near hatchling when I got him. At your site you mention them settling down w/age. At what age does this tend to happen? Mine has never been skittish, just hissy. I don't take him out of his cage, but I do reach in and give him a scratch or two daily. I'm tring to build some trust and familarize him to contact. At this point I let him decide when I'm done, usually with him retreating. I really wouldn't mind taking him outside once and a while. Could you give any pointers on how you acclimated your argus to human contact. I realize that their individuals and I'm sure some will adapt and some won't. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. Any info would be appreciated. Thanx Clint

I find they usually start getting somewhat calmer at around the time they reach sexual maturity, and they get as calm as they're going to get once they are completely full grown.

As far as aclimating them to human presence, if there is a magic formula, I have not found it yet. Generally I am a fan of not handling it too much in an attempt to force it to accept you, mostly because it stresses the monitor and seems to make no difference to how calm it becomes in the end. If you want to take one out for a while, go for it (but use a leash if you take it outside). Arguses make it very easy for you to pick them up - when you reach for them, they turn sideways to you and stand up tall as part of their defensive display so you can easily scoop them up under their belly. I would often let mine roam around the house while I cleaned their cages and then pick them up to return them once I was done (although this can cause problems if the lizard is small enough to squeeze itself somewhere unreachable or if it climbs up your china cabinet or something).

Good luck,

Luke

Luke,

Thanks a ton for the post. I have came across your site while perusing posts in the forum that pertained to the species I have been looking at. The more I look at Argus monitors, the more I become interested in them. They have that very sleep, goanna type look to their bodies, unlike the "bulldog"-ish look of my blackthroat. While I can appreciate the beauty of both body types in both lizards, I believe I prefer the sleeker goanna look better. The one thing I keep wondering more and more about Arguses is their attitude. I keep reading and having people tell me about the way they act, how it's so different from most lizards, almost a bravado. However, I've never been around any so I don't really understand what people are speaking of, and no one seems very inclined to try to clear that up a bit more. I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject, as you very obviously have much experience with these Varanids and seem to be very successful with them. The pictures on one of the sites you posted for me are being enjoyed immensely and the text is invaluable. Thank you for your help. I look forward to continuing to receive it.
-Chance

Hi Chance,

I am glad my webpages were useful to you.

When describing the behavior of arguses the first thing that comes to mind is their activity level. These are not lizards that are content to sit around and do nothing. It seems that when conditions are right for their activity, they will be out and doing something.

Arguses are also the reptilian equivalent of bulldozers - saurian earth moving machines! They love to dig, dig, dig. This drives my wife crazy, because when the dirt is held in metal stock tanks, and they reach the metal, their claws make a high pitched scraping sound against the thin steel. If they get the chance to wander around your house, they'll dig up your potted plants.

Arguses are bold. In captivity, they rarely back down or try to hide. They will let you get up to within half a meter or so without reacting much to your presence. Even if scared they will often hold their ground. Sometimes, they will come right up to you even though they do not like for you to approach them.

Arguses are alert and quick to react to things happening around them. They will try to figure out what is going on around them. Sometimes, when they are curious about something, they will stand up on their hind legs using their tail for a brace to get a better look - very cute! They like to explore and if given the chance will get into everything and climb on everything and dig up everything.

Arguses are sqirmy. They do not care for human contact and do not really like to be held or touched. When held, they will at best sit there puffing up and hissing occasionally, at worst be a mad scramble of muscle and talons trying to run away.

Arguses are big bluffers. If you reach for them or get too close, they put on a nice defensive display with hissing, puffing up, arching the neck, standing up tall, etc. They tend not to back it up with anything more serious however (unless they are really stressed, I've had one big male that would go to town biting my hand in certain circumstances - fortunately I was always wearing heavy leather gloves when this happened). I've heard them called huff'n'puffs, which seems accurate. Incidently, this makes them easy to pick up - when you reach for them they often stand up high lifting their bodies off the ground. You can then easily scoop them up from underneath.

Arguses are gluttons. I've never met any species of monitor with a stronger feeding response. Watch your fingers at feeding time.

I do not know if this answered your questions. If not, let me know what areas you want clarification on.

Luke

everytime I read post like this I just want an argus more and more. They just seem like the perfect monitor.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Are you saying that you keep a male and female in the same 4X8 enclosure? I am curently building an enclosure that will be 4X8 with a 4X2 cage connected to one side. So half of the enclosure will be 6 ft deep and the other half will be 4 feet deep. Will this be ok for an adult pair (if the get along)?

Most likely the enclosure will me 4 feet tall w/ at least 1 foot of substrate.
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Ed

There are water dragons, chameleons, and monitors in my jungle room.

I'd say go with the rudis or maybe some flavi crosses. As high as your enclosure is, give the crosses something to climb and I promise you they will use it. Both of these guys are very active, sturdy and handle mistakes relatively well.