Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I haven't really given up. I am planning to keep, at least, a trio myself. It is a long story. . . but I still have 2 males and they are both fathers of some offspring and unrelated to some offspring.

You are right. I am frustrated. I will tell you a little about my frustration. . . I warn you, this could get long and philosophical. So if you don't want to read on, so be it. . .

I will start by telling you a story I heard yesterday. It is actually a common story, at least in a way. . .

A person was sitting outside with their chameleon a couple days ago. They had the chameleon in a small fruit tree to keep it contained, give it some sun. . . let it unwind. . . after spending some time out there and seeing the chameleon all settled in and comfortable, the person dashed into the house for a few minutes to get something. When they came back, their beloved chameleon was gone. Not stole. Not eaten by a predator. Escaped.

I have personally experienced this remarkable ability for chameleons to escape in a flash as soon as their keeper is not looking. . . before I had such extensive outdoor housing, I would sometimes take a small tree into my front yard and bring chameleons one at a time out there to enjoy the sun. On one particular telling occasion, I ran (and I mean ran) in to answer the phone and ran right back out. The female jacksonii I had in the tree was already off the tree and was trucking across the front lawn faster than I have ever seen a chameleon move. She was headed for a giant elm tree. . . where she really *wanted* to be . . .

Over the 10 years I have worked with chameleons, I have come more and more to realize that the absolute best we can provide them in captivity is only a tiny, minuscule model of their free, wild existence. And it is clear that they understand this.

My outdoor cage is raised 12 feet off the ground. It is 10 feet by 20 feet. It is 9 feet tall itself. And it is built into the center of a giant, old oak tree. I furnish this large cage with an assortment of plants, including very tall trees that reach the top of the enclosure. The cage includes areas of dense foliage, open spaces, areas of sun and shade, all kinds of climbing branches. . . it is really quite beautiful. Native vines have grown up the north side of the structure and now cover much of that side, a lot of the top. Additionally, they have grown into the cage, providing real, natural "furniture" for my chameleons. An irrigation system "rains" on this entire structure for about 1.5 hours every day. It is, by any standard, a chameleon paradise.

Each spring when the weather is warm enough, I put the chameleons out in this cage. And each year they respond the same way. . . for the first two weeks, they spend about 50% of their time trying to get into the oak tree. . . after that time , they seem to learn they can not get there and they settle into their caged life.

All of the chameleons in the above stories are captive bred. In spite of the fact that they have never been in the wild, freedom and wilderness calls to them in a way we can not understand, because the environments we set up for them - no matter how elaborate and sophisticated - are simply foreign replicas of the habitats these animals want to live in.

We can isolate them from seeing natural things, and thereby reduce their attempts to escape. We can set up visual barriers (for animals that are primarily sight-oriented!) to keep them more placid. But we can not give them a normal life in captivity. All of our captives are living lives that are very different than what they were designed to live. Captivity is not good for chameleons. Tons (literally tons) of dead, imported specimens later, you would think the chameleon-keeping community would be prepared for deep contemplation of that. After all, the line between "chameleon keeper" and "chameleon consumer" is a very fine one.

Understanding that in a deep and meaningful way is probably the number one key to my success, I think.

socalchameleons@adelphia.net wrote:

>
> I agree with you completly on several topics. To me I guess it's about doing the best you can at something you love. Things take time, maybe 10 years is not enough. I dunno, you make several good points, but it's all a process. Until the process is refined there will be flaws. I, for one would love the opportuniy to work with this specis. Honestly though, I don't know that I would meet the criteria you desire. But what I got from these two emails is that you've given up. As though it's not worth the effort. 7 years is a lot of time to invest and not seeing the desired outcome is hard to deal with so I can understand your frustration. I would just very much like to see someone continue working with these animals until it is no longer possible.

Mike,

It's been a long time since I've seen your name pop up. It's good to see you're still around. The last time I heard a Mike Fry Monologue was on the chameleon Listserv about 10 years ago.

I just wanted to comment..
In early chameleon days, the threat of endangerment and extinction was on the forefront of chameleon keepers minds. "slash and burn" was a catch phrase that kept all of us trying to get husbandry down to a science in hope of keeping some species on this planet through captivity. We saw poor countries being torn apart, and the wild-life absolutely destroyed.

Presently, you don't ever hear about the peril of chameleons. The worst you hear about is a shady importation scandal once in awhile.

You shouldn't be frustrated.. You never know what could have happened if we didn't take an interest in rearing chameleons in captivity. Extinction would have been less fair to the chameleons than being in captivity.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-

Yes. There used to be a few fools who would claim they were "saving chameleons from burning in the trees of Madagascar." But enough people saw that for what it was - a marketing ploy. No animals are saved through importation. All importation does is add another drain on populations that are living in very issolated and small remaining islands of habitat.

Living under some false premise that parsonii can be saved from extinction through captive breeding efforts actually adds yet another nail to their coffin. It keeps the focus off the only real solution - habitat preservation in Madagascar.

Unfortunately, getting all excited about preserving forests they can't see for animals they can only imagine is not likely for most people.

I didn't think this industry was organized enough to make a marketing ploy.

Is this a Mike Fry exclusive? This is the first I have heard about this chameleon conspiracy.

Can you shed some light on this.. if I've been led astray, I'd like to get straightened out..
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-

"A few fools" does not a conspiracy make.

Parts of Madagascar were being burned and cleared. Habitats were being destroyed.

So, you're saying that a plan was concocted to leak this information so that they would sell more chameleons?

And then those people who reacted and started captive breeding projects are fools for falling victim to the sinister plan..

--

Why do you have chameleons if you are so against them being taken from the wild?

Are you opposed to other people keeping chameleons?
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-

Yes. Parts of Madagascar are were and are being burned and cleared. Unfortunately, there is no relation to that activity and collection of chameleons for the pet trade.

If collectors were going out ahead of slash and burn activities and collecting chameleons from those locals just before the burn, there might be a flimsy argument that the animals were being saved from burning. But that is not the case.

People hear statistics like 33% of Madagascar is burned every year and they assume all habitat will be gone soon. In reality, most of the land being burned is land that was already cleared and burned before, and that is and has long ago been unsuitable for sustaining parsonii.

The notion that we "saved" Parson's chameleons by killing between 20,000 and 25,000 for the pet trade is without substantive, supportive data. All data is to the contrary.

I have never and will never purchase a wild-caught chameleon, or any chameleon that originated from outside the USA, because their origin is, IMO, very suspect.

I have also never claimed there is any sort of conspiracy. I do, however, believe there are a fair number of unscrupulous people who work in the trade of chameleons. After all, there is even a well-known author who has been arrested multiple times for smuggling chameleons out of Madagascar. Not surprisingly, his name seems to pop up a lot whenever "captive bred" animals from over seas are mentioned. . . as though we are all really *that* stupid.

I am not going to tell you or others what you should do. But I would hope you would, at least, make your decisions based on data rather than on pure emotion, like the notion of "saving" them from their natural habitat.

I hope I am wrong, but it could come across as though you have not given this issue serious research or consideration. If that is true, you might want to look into the issue more.

I have no idea who you're arguing with, but it has nothing to do with my original post.

You said: Chameleons belong in the wild.. and I am frustrated.

I said: Hi Mike, don't feel bad. Your strides in captive breeding are a good thing.

You said: Parsons can't be saved through captive breeding. Slash and burn was a marketing ploy.. you fools!

(I never said parsons could be or couldn't be. I was being supportive of your efforts)

I said: A marketing ploy? That sounds like a conspiracy.

You said: I'm Mike Fry, you fool!

I said: C'mon, tell me how it was a marketing ploy.

(at this point, you were just being a pompous ass.. so I was probing a little deeper. But still, there was never really an arguement. The only thing you disagreed with was Madagascars state of destruction. Which is true. How it was a marketing ploy is still fuzzy.)

You said: A bunch of crap that still had nothing to do with the original "marketing ploy" debate

(At this point of the conversation I realized that you just needed a chance to vent a bit about all the things that bother Mike Fry. You did make a great effort to insult me, but until now, you didn't realize you were arguing with someone other than me)

The only two wildcard questions were the one about you owning chameleons.. (pssst.. your chameleons came from wild caught chameleons somewhere down the line) AND... if you think other people should own chameleons. If you're like other elitests, you don't think anyone should own chameleons.

While I am doing my research on the state of Madagascars wildlife... you do some research on this post and realize that I wasn't contesting anything you were getting worked up about..

You are a walking contradiction.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-

There was actually no-need to paraphrase the conversation. You could have quoted it work for word.

Like, "I didn't think this industry was organized enough to make a marketing ploy.

Is this a Mike Fry exclusive? This is the first I have heard about this chameleon conspiracy.

Can you shed some light on this.. if I've been led astray, I'd like to get straightened out."

Clearly, you are nothing more than a troll. . . which is unfortunate, because the subject matter is an important one.

Clearly, questioning Mike Fry makes you a fool and a troll.

Mike fry uses Listservs and Message boards to promote his elitest agenda. He doesn't hold conversations, he holds lectures. He scolds you for things that only exist in his head. And then, he closes with something dramatic and insulting.

I've got Mike Fry pegged. You're like the cicadas.. You came out of your hole after 10 years, and have been annoying me ever since. I can only hope that you will be gone again shortly.

You really pulled me into an important discussion..but, all I want to know about is this marketing ploy!
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-

Well - thanks guys. I thouroughly enjoyed reading through a really thoughtful discussion of the moral implications of owning these great animals. What brought me to owning a chameleon was both a facination I've had for chameleons since I first saw one in a pet store about 10 years agos, but also a deep concern that one day we may not have these incredible creatures on this Earth.

It's up to us - those who care - to keep breeding, but more important, to support the scientific and polictical powers to publicize what's happening to their habitat!

Anyway - keep the spirited discussions going. I'd like to hear more from the others on this site about what can be done to support chams in the wild!

In my opinion, the best thing you can do to promote chameleons in the wild is to restrict your chameleon purchases to animals captive born and bred in your native country. "CB" animals being shipped from over seas are of questionable origin.

As was stated in another thread, the line between "chameleon keeper" and "chameleon consumer" is a fine one.