Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ar first I thought diamondback but there are no clear diamonds on its body. Since it clearly has a banded tail I thought maybe mojave but it was caught in San Angelo, Tx last weekend which is farther east than the known range of mojaves. Is it a western diamondback?
Arik

That's an atrox. It does have a less than perfect pattern on the back, but it is an atrox all the same.

BTW - if you keep handling snakes that way, you WILL eventually get bitten. I and many others before me have learned that lesson the hard way.
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Chris Harrison

Agreed..that's an atrox. And...Chris is absolutely right...you will eventually get tagged that way. You have to remember that snake can articulate his fangs. He can work one out of the side of his mouth, turn his head and ..whammo...you're stuck.

Pick a finger you don't like.......

They are right on both counts...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I hate to join this motley crew in total agreement...but they are absolutely right on both counts. Not only that you will probably get a not so free trip to the hospital if you continue that kind of stuff, but it really does cause damage to the snake. A snake that is gently lifted on a hook & bagged for transport stands a much greater chance of surviving in captivity...or in the wild if it is to be released.

Stay safe! ~~Greg~~

First of all, Thanks for the ID from all of you. I origionally thought atrox but with so many people saying they thought mojave I started wondering. Even though the area was farther east then known mojave range in TX.
Secondly I have been catching rattlers for 15 years with only a few close calls and no envenomations or even bites. The close calls were for the exact attribute old herper described. Its amazing that the front of a rattlers head can actually bend downwards and that coupled with the hinged fangs that can move independantly give them a huge range in how far back they can bite. Remember that a pic. is a still shot of one sec. in time and does not show the entire ordeal.
If chrish and his friends are being bitten I would advise THEM to reevaluate THEIR catching techniques. It's kind've like someone involved in car wreck yelling to me driving by how to drive. I hope this doesn't start something here because it's not meant to I feel comfortable with my handling techniques and will continue to use them. I do use hooks when I have them handy but in this case I din't have one so I improvised. LOL I wont even mention how I got him by the tail just before he dissapeared into the weeds.
Also I do not keep snakes caught in the wild so a snake bag is not necessary. I think people who do remove snakes from the wild are doing the wild populations great harm. Catch,Photo, and release. This snake calmed done just fine with some gentle, but still restrained, handling and was released a few mins. later later.
Then a few feet away I found a Texas horned lizard and photo'd it too. (pic in the horned lizard forum). I can hardly wait to see the posts about their protected status.lol
Again thanks to all for your input. I should have just went with my first ID and not listened to some of the others input.
Thanks again
Arik

Secondly I have been catching rattlers for 15 years with only a few close calls and no envenomations or even bites. The close calls were for the exact attribute old herper described. Its amazing that the front of a rattlers head can actually bend downwards and that coupled with the hinged fangs that can move independantly give them a huge range in how far back they can bite.

First of all, I can tell by looking at your photograph that you are a fair number of years younger than I (and most of the others who offered the same advice) and by your question that you are a fair bit less experienced than I with rattlesnakes (that is an obvious atrox to anyone who has seen more than a few).

I didn't intend any offense with my comment about the risk of handling snakes in the way you show in your picture. But the picture you posted on these forum will be seen by many people with less experience than you or I and they might infer that this is the way "experienced" people do this. I wanted to post an opinion of disagreement from someone with (at least) similar levels of experience.

Remember that a pic. is a still shot of one sec. in time and does not show the entire ordeal.

As for it being one second, during that one second you are doing something dangerous. I have many dozens (hundreds?) of pictures of rattlesnakes and I don't have a single one of me handling one. Why? Because I wanted a picture of the snake, not myself.

If chrish and his friends are being bitten I would advise THEM to reevaluate THEIR catching techniques.

Actually, I did. One June 9, 1986, I learned (18 years ago yesterday by chance! - I had about 10 years experience then) from a small Crotalus triseriatus that there is no safe way to pin and free handle a snake. I was handling the snake "by the book" and had pinned it carefully and based on my decade or so of experience up to that point. I was bitten in one of those "close calls" you describe above (it bent its head and reached around and tagged my index finger).

Have I pinned snakes and picked them up since then? Yes, a few times when I absolutely had to in order to collect an important specimen for a venom voucher and there was no other alternative - and I was stupid to risk it even then frankly. But that probably represents 2 or 3 times out of many hundreds of rattlesnakes that I have dealt with (and then there are the many dozens of cottonmouths,copperheads, and coral snakes). You simply don't need to do what you did to get a photo of a rattlesnake.

In fact, since I changed my technique to safer methodologies, I haven't had any "close calls" either.

There were "close calls" prior to my bite, back when I used to pin snakes. For some reason (youth? stupidity?) I didn't learn from these close calls. I had to learn the hard way.

I remember Dr. Jim Dixon yelling at me on a herpetology field trip for pinning an atrox. Here was a man with half a century of experience and probably the greatest living authority on TX Herps telling me that in spite of my youthful feelings of experience and invulnerability, I was going to eventually get tagged. You know what? He was right, I was wrong.

It's kind've like someone involved in car wreck yelling to me driving by how to drive.

Actually a better analogy would be that it is more like someone who has been driving for 20 years explaining to a new driver that even though running that traffic light a few seconds after it turned red turned out OK today doesn't mean that one day you aren't going to get killed trying it.

You don't have to learn from my experience or that of others, You are welcome to learn from your own. Apparently your close calls aren't teaching you anything either.

I simply replied because I don't think it appropriate to post a picture like that on a public forum then to try and defend the action. When Steve Irwin does that, it is irresponsible. Same rule applies to everyone else, in my book.

Respectfully,
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Chris Harrison

I am 31 years old have caught rattlers since i was around 16. Mostly timbers in the midwest but 4 years ago I moved to Phoenix and had a lot of fun catching native desert species there. 2 years ago moved back to Tx. and have caught probably 40-50 here.
I too have experience catching other venomous snakes and wont go into them.
I appreiate all of your comments and dont want to offend anyone either.
The atrox i have come accross before have been much darker and had way more of a distinct diamond pattern.
I am not trying to be Steve Irwin. I wanted a pic for my relatives to see with me in it.
I have many more pics with just snakes in them.
If you are saying I'm not experienced then I disagree. But everyone has an opinion.
Like I said I didn't have a snake hook and used a tree limb as an improvised substitute.
You yourself said that you have done this 3-4 times when nescessary.
The one thing that bugs me about older herpers is that they think that their way is the best and only way and evryone else is stupid. I appreciate the experience that they have but they don't know everything and neither do you or I.
What about if you are carefully handling the snake on a hook and you trip on a loose rock and fall? The point is that there is allways a risk and they can only be minimized at best.
I have also kept MANY venomous captive elapids and exotic vipers. I currently dont however.
I posted the pic in a public forum mainly because of an argument with someone else about it's id and wanted more proof from you and everyone else that posted. Hence the name of the forum.
I appreciate your advice and hope this post doen't sound too hostile because it's not meant to be.

Still have 10 fingers,
Arik

Arik,

When you posted first, no one had any idea of your experience level. As Chis pointed out, we saw a photo of a person handling a (easily identified) Rattlesnake in a manner that most of us consider unsafe and insecure, both for the snake and the handler, and asking for ID. No one was trying to insult you or question your competency. If you have experience handling these animals in this manner and it works for you and you are comfortable with it, then by all means do it the way you wish. We were trying to do two things:

1. ID the snake for you

2. Prevent a possible future tragedy

If I sounded as if I were talking down to you, then please accept my apologies. That was not my intent.

As Chris pointed out, there is no 100% safe method of handling venomous snakes with you hands. There is always some degree of risk. I see people handling Elapids, Viperids, and Crotalids all in the same manner...doesn't make sense to me as the physiology of them are all different making the (to my mind) different handling techniques appropriate. However, if it works for them, far be it from me to tell them how to do it.

I have been tagged before too, by a small C. adamanteus. Not from handling techniques, but from pure, unadulterated carelessness. It was not a serious envenomation, but painful. It's been a lot of years ago...the scars have faded considerably, I (luckily) didn't suffer any serious tissue damage, but the memory doesn't fade at all. I have a very good friend who was tagged by an Atrox on his right hand in the web between his thumb and forefinger. This was a Grade 4 envenomation that very nearly upgraded to Grade 5 (fatal). He lost about 50% of the muscle tissue in his right forearm and hand, despite aggressive Antivenin treatment. This man is one of the best I've ever known at handling venomous snakes. His was also due to carelessness, using a hook too short for the situation. The point is, no one is exempt. No matter how good you are or how careful you try to be...it can still happen. With that in mind, it would seem that always using the absolute safest techniques that offer the least skin-to-skin contact with the animal is prudent and wise. Atrox is fully capable of killing a human being...why take any chances?

As far as the safety of the snake, it's what you don't see that is important. After having captured and kept literally hundreds of Rattlesnakes I can tell you this. Rattlesnakes that were pinned during capture very often would not feed...probably 75% of them. Those that were captured without pinning, as a rule, did well in captivity. What that tells me is that pinning frequently does damage, either physically, psychologically, or both that the snake does not easily recover from. I suspect that a large number of Rattlesnakes that are pinned, captured and released also do not survive in the long run. In field research, Rattlesnakes are seldom (if ever) pinned.

As far as capturing by hook-and-tail, then tripping over a rock or something, that also would be chalked up to poor handling technique. Common sense would dictate that if you are hooking a venomous snake you would have though ahead enough and be sure enough of the terrain and your footing to prevent that.

I used to handle hots like that as well until I had a close call with a copperhead (pinning a 7 inch copperhead is not the best idea). When you handle venomous like that, the question is not if you will be tagged, it is when.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply." So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why. He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do. So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you."-Tesla

If anything, my post has generated a good thread. I think the matter is resolved and I too hope nothing I said has offended anyone. I will continue to do what feels comfortable to me and everyone else will also.
Thanks for everyone's input and I'm always in the conda forum so feel free to find me there.
Arik

Yeah I have handled some hots. I have NEVER pinned one. I was taught never to pin one because there is always that chance. I have learned that you must treat a venomous snake like its goal is to bite you at all costs. I have used bags to get venomous off of the road or to remove a venomous species from someone's yard. I use a hook to place the snake in the bag. I may also allow the snake to retreat in the bag for safety then I close the bag.

I really avoiding bagging venomous if I can though. The more handling time the more probability of being bitten.

I remember my professor showed us once how to pin a snake. He said that we should never try it. He was bitten 3 weeks later by a baby cottonmouth. He was in the hospital for 2 nights and I heard it was pretty costly. NO PINNING FOR ME.

Oh Arik by the way...nice conda.

Oh yeah...definately an C. atrox...went to West TX once and I'll never forget what an atrox looks like. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE!
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14 Leopard Geckos 5.9.0
Found 2 Leo eggs (JungleXBlizzard) today. 5/23/04
2 Tokay Geckos 2.0.0
1 Graybanded Kingsnake 1.0.0 (on vacation in my house)
1 Baird's Rat Snake (Thanks Vadoni!) 1.0.0
1 Gray Ratsnake 0.0.1
2 Dekay's Snake 0.0.2
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum nebulosum
1.1 Green Tree Frogs (H. cinerea)
1.1 Gray Tree Frog (H versicolor)

.

It might occur to you Arik that some of us on these forums have one heck of a lot more experience than you (which is why we are still here). I have caught and worked with venomous for almost thirty years. Greg (who I have the pleasure of knowing personally) taught me and has been doing it for much much longer.

(In that photo you do not have the snakes head under control and it is pure luck that you didn't get nailed on the index finger.)

That you resent advice from older herpers is a pity. It's not that our way is the only way...It's that we have been around long enough to see how not to get nailed (most of the time). By the way, I too have never been envenomated by a viperine or elapid species.

That you will do things your own way is your perogative. But when you display a photo of an obviously unsafe handling grip, don't expect us "Old timer's to just sit back and say "Bravo!" Some poor kid on this forum might take you for an "expert" and try that grip with bad results.

Remember that our responsibility on these forums is also to the beginners who look to us for safe instruction. Something we "Old Timers" understand.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

First of all it isnt smart to handle a rattlesnake if you do not correctly know what type it is, what if you get bitten and the venom er: dosent know what kind of anti-venom to give to you?? Let this be a lesson to you. And yes it is a Crotalus Atrox.

Brandon

Wow you must be bored to go back through old forums and make posts to things from months past.
I would expect to be given crofab in the case of any rattlesnake bite. I have never been envenomated in my years with venomous snakes as I repeatedly mentioned above. Even venom from snakes of the same species differ a lot depending on the local. I don't know if you've ever seen venom er on tv but most people that do get envenomated aren't snake experts. So with your rational if they cant id a western diamondback from a prairie rattler they would be hopelessly untreatable. Well thank god thats not the case. Neurotoxic venom, like that from a mojave becomes obvious to any trained doctor and is treated with crofab as well as the hemotoxic ones.
Since I read your advice to me, let me give some back to you. Instead of waiting for everyone who does know what they are talking about to make a post first and then jumping in months later with nonsense like 'you need to know the species of the rattler so the er knows what antivenom to use', why don't you read up on it more and save yourself the indignity of making a post like that.
Oh yeah, I caught 7 more westerns, a prairie, a trans pecos copper, and a texas coral since that pic was taken. Still no envenomations. Must be doing something right.

Thanks for your input,
Arik

Maybe this will help you. http://www.savagelabs.com/crofab.htm

Arik