Reptile & Amphibian Forums

would you buy an adult 50% het for whatever male or would you think that they are selling the adult because it didnt prove out and not buy it?
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"I am not an expert."

1.0 Albino Het BP
0.1 Albino BP
1.0 Caramel Albino Het BP
0.2 Normal BP

I have several poss het reptiles but do not have the resources or time to prove them out. Time is the biggest issue for me. Now, all of my hets are producing sperm plugs now and are in the 800 gram range. I did pair them up with females this year, but my females just didn't "take".
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Jay A. Martin

No.

I wouldn't buy a male het unless I had a female het already.

I am impatient and that takes toooo long to try to prove out.

On the flip side I would pay money for a 50% het because if she doesn't prove out, you've got another female.
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:43:31 by phwyvern.

It should take the same amount of time. The difference being, with a 100% het, you have not wasted any time. Of course, this relies on the 100% het being truly 100%. If the poss het ends up being normal, you have wasted the time it took to prove it out.
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Jay A. Martin

50% het male, I would assume you breed it to a normal, because if you're buying a 50% het then I also assume you're low on cash.

50% het bred to a normal, equals normals, and if het, then hets and normals.

Wait for the girls to grow up, (2 years), breed them to the father or one of the sons. Then if he proves out to be het, then theres your proof, if not, then well, you're out of luck on the morph but you have some bps.
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Now, what i was saying is that MALE hets take to long (for me) to prove out.

I also said that if it were a female het I WOULD buy it. MALE hets are cheap and can be had pretty easily compared to the simple recessive homozygote and female hetero's. And if she doesn't prove out you've got another female on your hands.

If you have a homo female, a het female, then I would say that you should spend the extra money and buy a 100% het male, if you can't afford a homozygous male.

Make sense now?
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:43:08 by phwyvern.

I know what you are saying - overall. I was just pointing out that a 50% het can take the same amount of time to prove out as a 100% het. Your first post "read" as if it would take longer. It wouldn't. It's either het or it's not. For example:

50% X Normal = Offspring X 50% = Albino or all normals
100% X Normal = Offspring X 100% = Albinos and hets

Same amount of time to prove. Only if your 50% do not produce, you have wasted a few years of breeding time. Is that what you were getting at?
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Jay A. Martin

When did I mention anything about 100% hets taking longer to prove out than 50% hets?

Didn't think so. Nice try though!
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:42:42 by phwyvern.

Your post: "I am impatient and that takes toooo long to try to prove out"

I read that, along with the original context of the thread "Should I buy a 50% het...", as you saying no, it takes too long to prove out.

At any rate... moving on.
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Jay A. Martin

I find that you don't like being corrected, as many people don't.

Maybe you shouldn't read between the lines next time, and read the post.

I said that 50% males take to long to prove out, TO ME.

Not once did I mention what you accused me of, or implied.

I simply stated my opinion to the posters thread.

Have a good one!

Joel
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:41:41 by phwyvern.

you can go ahead and buy a het female from someone trying to sell you a snake...you buy her and in the end she proves out to be normal. it depends on where you buy your snakes. buy a het female from a good known breeder and you're set. buy a het female someone new and you risk spending so much for just a normal female. don't look at the prices...look for the real deal despite the number on the price tag...there have been many people getting scammed by unknown breeders, and for those unknowns with real hets up for sale get the bad end of it...get refrences...ask questions...learn as much as you can and find out what they're garauntee is if the animals don't prove out...

A lot of times, as in my case, people aquire a true Het to replace their possible Hets before they have time to prove them out. I could hang onto my possible Hets until I prove them out but it is just more mouths to feed. In short, if the person has solid references and paperwork, buying an adult possible Het can be a cheap way to get a great investment animal without having to raise it up from a baby. I may be biased because I am currently trying to sell some possible Het Adults.

I understand genetics and would never (not that there is anything wrong with buying them) buy a 50% het anything. I just think that tring to sell a adult male 50% het seems a little suspect to me, that all, and of course just my opinion.
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"I am not an expert."

1.0 Albino Het BP
0.1 Albino BP
1.0 Caramel Albino Het BP
0.2 Normal BP

Personally I love possible hets because through breeding they have proven out every time. We produced albino boas in 2000 using possible hets, albino granite burms in '01 with possible hets. A guy I sold a possible het albino boa to just proved it to be a het. (kryolla on kingsnake). Any honest breeder will tell you they love possible hets because they prove out all the time. We're producing possible hets for clown, caramel, snow and albino. We sell the males and keep the girls to breed back. Its fun and its a great way to produce some awesome snakes. And thats what its all about, having fun!
web site

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Mark Kennedy Reptiles

Why did you start this whole thread if you 'would never buy a 50% Het'? Since you are so bored, I've included a picture of my 50% Het Caramel from NERD ovulating. Enjoy!

Blake

Awesome snake, good luck with that 50% het FEMALE, lol.

Let us know what happens.
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:40:51 by phwyvern.

If SHE is ovulating, she must be FEMALE, lol. I know we were talking about males but I figured I would throw her in to keep things interesting.

Blake

I didn't mean it like that, I was just trying to imply that only 50% females are worth buying TO ME. lol

Good luck with her man.

Joel
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- Joel Smith

Email Me!

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Removed advertising slogan.

Edited on June 14, 2004 at 22:40:09 by phwyvern.

FWIW,

I did not have the cash to purchase a het albino female, so I bought a 66% het. I had the same concern as you whether or not this animal was already bred with no luck. What I decided to do is purchase a possible het that was to young to breed. The oldest juvenile I could find which demanded a price tag of $200.00. I bought her a few months back and hoped to breed her this fall, but her weight is on the low side ( under 900g ). Even if I have to wait until fall 05' at least it is comforting knowing she has not had a chance to propagate. This greatly increases her chances to prove out, imo.

Hope this helps with your decision,
Toddg
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1.1 Balls - Male het/albino, Female 66% het/albino
***Fingers crossed for next season!!!***

I was going to prove out the 50% male het pieds I produced. I think no one should sell them if they already know!
But I am proving out dh snows and 50% het clowns.....so many eggs too much to work on. But I was thinking of trying one a year out and make 2-4 times the money proving it is a 100% het. Just my thought.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Possible het males are normals as far as I am concerned. Possible het females however.....well, from a reputable breeder or from your OWN breeding, are the best by in BP's right now!!
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But if there are people still breeding normal males who happen to like morphs maybe they should be breeding possible het males purchased at near normal price. I know, the argument is week since you can get a 100% het albino male for near normal price. Still, with some of the higher priced morphs there may be some incentive for the budget challenged.

I've seen some siblings of a VPI snow (i.e. normal 66% possible het albinos 66% possible het VPI axanthics) advertised very reasonable considering that there is only a 1 in 9 chance that they aren't het for something (albino, VPI axanthic, or both). If you had het or even possible het females you would probably do well to upgrade to a for sure het male but if budget restraints have you working with normal females then you don't really have to know which the possible double het is het for. Line breed it and there is only a 1 in 9 chance that you don't have a shot at eventually producing at least albino and the odds of having a shot at producing snows are 1 in 4 in 9 with enough daughters held back (i.e. holding back enough daughters to have a double het if the father hits his 4 in 9 chance of being a double het). Not for every personality but a $300 gamble that might work out for an entry level breeder was already willing to spend years breeding a lot of normal balls anyway.

On a different question, what about possible het females that have failed to prove with a small number of babies? You have to figure there odds are less than a completely untested possible het but if only a few babies they could still well be hets. Some would say just sell them as normals but I figure even the chance would be worth some slight premium.

Sorry, should have proofed better.

The odds of the normal snow siblings being double het for snow are 4 in 9 (don’t know why I left that extra “1” in there).

The complete odds are as follows:

normal 1:9
het albino only 2:9
het axanthic only 2:9
double het snow 4:9

Pretty good odds for only a couple hundred more than a normal. I think the females where only twice what the males where so also an excellent buy, especially if you have a known double het male. I guess some people are too worried about the 1:9 chance to appreciate the 8:9 chance that these are AT LEAST het albinos (and 3 times more likely to be something more valuable than het albino).

That is the best post I have read in a real long time.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Possible het females RULE. Worst comes to worst, you have an ADULT PROVEN female to use for your co-doms if she proves to be normal. If she proves to be a het, then you're gravvvvy! At 1/4-1/6 the price of ONE 100% het, you can get 2 or 3 hets out of that. That's MONEY in my books! LOL!

Cheers.
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humm
Can you imagine if I produce a snow with a possible dh snow male?
Besides with the female you would need a 100% het male. OR OMG breed a normal to the possible het female then breed each male till you hit and prove the girl out!
Males can breed to many females to prove out and see if he is 100%.
All 50% hets are shaky if you do not trust the person you purchase from. My hope is that the folks who bought a possible het snow produce one....not bad for under 100.00 and a little work.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Because you can prove them out to each morph. Breed it with an albino female, and breed it with an axanthic female, in the SAME YEAR! Right then and there you can prove out what it is!

yes that is what I am trying to do but to normal girls. The ones I am selling could be normals cause I do not know what dad is. Brian Sharp is selling possible het snow males for 300.00. If I did not have a dh snow male I would have bought him out! 75% chance of being het....no brainer.
Compare that to a dh snow male hummmmmmmm Cheap but a little work. That was my original post to you!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

but....uh.....if you don't have an Albino female or Axanthic female....and you're working with normal females then it's a shot in the dark. The majority of poss het male buyers are the ones hoping with a little less cash.....they will hit that shot. And don't own a het female to breed him to......let alone a visual morph.

I'm going to breed my possible double het males to possible albino het girls but I still think it makes plenty of sense with normal girls too.

The really cool thing about possible multiple hets is that your chances of them being normal keep going down with the more things they have a shot at being het for. Those Brian Sharp snow siblings actually have a 88.9% (not 75%) chance of being het for something (only 1:9 chance of being normal). If you breed them to a normal you really don't need to know what they are het for, just keep all the daughters and find out the next generation.

I'm also really looking forward to high order multiple hets in ball pythons like in corn snakes. I think these are underrated also and am surprised I haven't heard of any being produced yet. Maybe it's a glass half full thing. Rather than worrying about the long odds of producing the multiple homozygous(1 in 64 chance for each offspring from a pair of triple recessive hets - 1 in 256 chance with quadruple hets) I like to look at the low odds of producing normals. With a pair of triple hets for recessive traits, each baby only has a 42% chance of looking normal (i.e. 58% chance of at least one visible mutation) and less than 2% chance of not being het for at least one trait. With co-dominant it's even better since you can see the hets. A pair of spider pastel mojave (triple het – assuming none of these mutations are linked) would produce babies with only a 1.6% chance of being normal looking (98.4% chance of being at least one mutation).

Like....I thawght you lived in Canada man?? Are you from Cali?? But hey man....like...it's cool.....pretty far out man...

LMAO!!!!!!!!

Don't ask

LOL!

I wouldn't buy or keep any 50% or 66% hets....only 100% hets here are being kept.......

.......takes too long and bad odds........

male?....

you can get a 100% het amel for 100$ more or less.........and he'll still breed this winter at least late if you have good luck with him.......

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people.........people are stupid.........
really......really.........

Almost did once......thought I couldn't wait to have a pied so I contemplated buying some 66%er males and breeding them out. Then the mind got to racing......I could get lucky....but I could also be keeping and breeding a bunch of snakes that will never happen. IMHO.....it's different with poss het males than it is with females. A poss het male that never proves out just killed a few years of trying plus you now have a bunch of snakes that will only sell for a few bucks.....not worth all the time you've invested. Plus, look at the market.....just a couple years ago...poss het pied males were selling for what het males are today. If a female does not prove out....oh well.....you can never have enough females. You just breed her to something else.....all's good

So....Now I do wait............a couple more years het pied males $200?????? yep

It really depends on whether or not you're a gambler.

I think it really is a personality thing when it comes to possible hets. Most people seem to fall into extremes. Either they hate the idea that they might not be hets or they get off on the idea of possibly producing a morph on the cheap.

One nice thing about getting a possible het male when a morph is still expensive is that you can then produce possible possible het females long before most people could afford to buy one.

If you don't want to risk raising any extra animals for some reason (severely limited space/time) then possible hets probably aren't for you regardless of your personality. However, since I like raising the snakes, have plenty of patience, and like the idea of producing one on the cheap I'm glad that I have raised up to breeding size 4 female possible het albinos, 4 female possible possible het pieds, and 1 female possible possible het stripe for relatively little initial investment. I'm sure they will not all prove but I've already come close to breaking even with the one possible het albino that proved (unfortunately the albino babies weren’t right and didn't make it but I sold the female). If any more of them prove (and I think several will) it will just be gravy and it was a lot of fun to have a shot at something I would not have normally have had a shot at anyway.

As prices go down on for sure het males, possible het males become less attractive and it seems like all the new morphs are co-dominant so maybe the era for the possible het male is over. At least we now have possible multi hets.

I would, but only if I had a female homo to breed it to - then you're not wasting time. Last year I bought a P poss. het pied male, but only because I have a homo pied female to breed him to. If he turns out to be 0, I should have pieds and/or het pied babies. If he's normal, I'll have 0 hets. Either way, he's worth my effort and money to prove. Biggest drawback - it's possible, though not likely, that he's 0 het but all the offspring are het - just because the square says I should get half and half doesn't mean that mother nature will comply! Always a gamble, but always worth it.
Good Luck!

graycat
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Letting me live here:
2.1 normals
0.1 pie ball
1.0 hetpied
? Suriname
? Common snapping turtle
? Alligator snapping turtle
1 Guinea pig
2 gold fish (turtle survivors)
1 pet mouse and
3 cats
Oh yeah, and 3 children!

I would, but only if I had a female homo to breed it to - then you're not wasting time. Last year I bought a 50 percent poss. het pied male, but only because I have a homo pied female to breed him to. If he turns out to be 100 percent, I should have pieds and/or het pied babies. If he's normal, I'll have 100 percent hets. Either way, he's worth my effort and money to prove. Biggest drawback - it's possible, though not likely, that he's 100 percent het but all the offspring are het - just because the square says I should get half and half doesn't mean that mother nature will comply! Always a gamble, but always worth it.
Good Luck!
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Letting me live here:
2.1 normals
0.1 pie ball
1.0 hetpied
? Suriname
? Common snapping turtle
? Alligator snapping turtle
1 Guinea pig
2 gold fish (turtle survivors)
1 pet mouse and
3 cats
Oh yeah, and 3 children!

Sorry to pry into your business but let me get this strait, you have a homozygous pied female ($5,000 - $15,000) that you are going to breed to a possible het pied male ($250 - $500)? Does the male at least have the het-pied belly? I have enough confidence in the belly that I guess I might do that if he had a really good one and I saved $1,000 over a for sure het but it’s still a risk.

Seems to me you would be better off buying a $750 - $1,500 het male or loaning her out to breed to a homozygous pied male for half the clutch. At least both of those ways you know you have a shot at half a clutch of pieds with little or no extra expense (if you hadn’t already bought the possible het male).

I still think the possible het males make most sense for breeding to normal girls when you can't afford anything better. I’ve loaned my most expensive girl out for a nice male rather than breeding her to a much less valuable male.

Actually, my ph pied male does have the signature pied belly! But still - if he turned out to be a normal, I can at least turn out 100 percent hets.

I'd love to get a 100 percent het male, but I can't afford it.

graycat
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Letting me live here:
2.1 normals
0.1 pie ball
1.0 hetpied
? Suriname
? Common snapping turtle
? Alligator snapping turtle
1 Guinea pig
2 gold fish (turtle survivors)
1 pet mouse and
3 cats
Oh yeah, and 3 children!

I bet you will produce pieds then. However, if you can find a (preferably local) breeder who has a pied male and a nice clean collection that you trust you could split the clutch and reduce the risk of your male not being a het. Either way you can only hope for about half a clutch of pieds. I guess using your male you can have pied het females to keep from the other half of the clutch so that is worth something.