Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is not a bad guy report.

I purchased a snake from someone a little while ago( This shouldn't give any of you a clue to the persons identity because if you knew how many snakes I've purcahsed in the last month you'd crap).

When I got him, the first two things I noticed were his skinnyness and the way he was shipped. In a pillowcase, in a cardboard box with holes punched in it. No styrofoam or insulation.

I put him in an enclosure that I had pre-qualified with temps. and the ability to hold humidity. I received him on a Thursday and noticed "sneezing" on Saturday.

I contacted the seller Sunday via email who promptly contacted me the following morning. He said he would send me money for a vet bill or work it out however I wanted to. I told him to hold off, and I'll see if he can "kick" it by elevating his cage temp., which I had already started doing.

After review of the signs of respitory problems and his refusal to eat frozen, stunned, and live rodents I emailed the seller to tell him that I did not have confidence in the animals health and that I wanted to talk to him about refunding my money and sending the animal back.

This was about 3 weeks ago, at least, and I just heard back from him today via email. Now, I was on the verge of posting a "Buyer Beware" on one of the other sites that allow that sort of thing, becasue I feel that the animal needed medical attention before it was sold, and that the animal was mis- represented in the ad. My intention was to buy a breedable animal (which I expressed to the seller, and what I got was a animal that is occuping a lot of resources). The buyer says that he didn't forget about me, that he is willing to send me money for the animal, but does not want him back. That's fine, I wouldn't ship him right now anyway...

In the time I have had him, I've purchased another animal to complete my breeding project ($225), he's been to the vet once and prescribed medication ($40 plus $15 for the Baytril), I have Flagil coming to treat him for parasites ($20 including shipping from www.thebeanfarm.com), and I have a follow up visit at the vet on Friday (I'm assuming another $40). No fecal has been done since he has not eaten in clearly a long time. If, after I treat him with the flagil, he still refuses to eat, I seriouly doubt he will make it. I will see him through, and do everything I can to improve his health.

The question I need help with from you guys is this...how much money should I accept from this seller as reclamation for my losses? My first instict is the entire sum including shipping. I feel I have taken a huge burden off of this person and in return I got to give him $210.00. I love all of my animals, and take great pride in the care I provide for them, but I have plenty of animals to care for, and I bought this one for a purpose that will likely not be met, and I have invested a lot of finacial resources that I would not have had to bear if I purchased a healthy animal.

I would like to say that at least he did contact me...even though it's a little late in my opinion.

I want to be fair, so, I would really like to hear your input.

Thanks in Advance, Chris Olson

Well...hmmm

As far as the shipping goes.. I have received some snakes that were shipped inside pillowcases and put inside cardboard boxes.. and just surrounded by shredded newspaper - So i dont see anything wrong with how he shipped... I, however, do ship my animals in styrophome (sp?) like a mini ice chest and have those again placed in packaging boxes.. depending on how large the snake is and what materials i have on hand.. I will sometimes use pillowcases padded with tissue. I wouldnt think the way your particular snake was packaged had TOO much of an effect on its health when you got it....

BUt back to your question. Honestly I would ask for a full refund. Price of the animal and the cost of shipping. If the snake was misrepresented then i dont think its out of order to ask for it all back. Did you buy all of your recent snakes from this guy?? He is willing to give you your money back, but still does not want the snake?? $200 is not alot of money to lose on a snake, but if he does not even want it back... i would think something was up. What was the reason he stated for selling in the first place?

No, I purchased only one animal from him. He was getting out of that particular species and was selling several adults.

I felt the shipping was poor because it was still preety chilly outside for tropical snakes. Personally, I always use styro, it's just safer that way. If the snake was in bad shape to begin with, the cold temps. could not have helped.

Thanks, Chris

Yes now that i think of it.. your right. Ive never ship my animals like that, but I HAVE received some like that... the only difference was they had no holes punched in and heat packs were used.

Hopefully he will refund you the full amount: animal shipping

Chris,
. Shipping snakes without insulation is unacceptable. A month ago temperatures in your part of the country were very cold. Some parts of the country were having weather with temperatures in the 90s last month. Snakes need to be protected from the temperature changes that occur in aircraft at altitude. A simple styrofoam box will somewhat buffer the temperature changes that occur in shipping. People who ship snakes without adequate insulation SHOULD be exposed so that we all will know who they are and will know not to deal with them. This hobby would be much better off without the people who fail to do the right thing.
Jeff

>>This is not a bad guy report.
>>
>>I purchased a snake from someone a little while ago( This shouldn't give any of you a clue to the persons identity because if you knew how many snakes I've purcahsed in the last month you'd crap).
>>
>>When I got him, the first two things I noticed were his skinnyness and the way he was shipped. In a pillowcase, in a cardboard box with holes punched in it. No styrofoam or insulation.
>>
>>I put him in an enclosure that I had pre-qualified with temps. and the ability to hold humidity. I received him on a Thursday and noticed "sneezing" on Saturday.
>>
>>I contacted the seller Sunday via email who promptly contacted me the following morning. He said he would send me money for a vet bill or work it out however I wanted to. I told him to hold off, and I'll see if he can "kick" it by elevating his cage temp., which I had already started doing.
>>
>>After review of the signs of respitory problems and his refusal to eat frozen, stunned, and live rodents I emailed the seller to tell him that I did not have confidence in the animals health and that I wanted to talk to him about refunding my money and sending the animal back.
>>
>>This was about 3 weeks ago, at least, and I just heard back from him today via email. Now, I was on the verge of posting a "Buyer Beware" on one of the other sites that allow that sort of thing, becasue I feel that the animal needed medical attention before it was sold, and that the animal was mis- represented in the ad. My intention was to buy a breedable animal (which I expressed to the seller, and what I got was a animal that is occuping a lot of resources). The buyer says that he didn't forget about me, that he is willing to send me money for the animal, but does not want him back. That's fine, I wouldn't ship him right now anyway...
>>
>>In the time I have had him, I've purchased another animal to complete my breeding project ($225), he's been to the vet once and prescribed medication ($40 plus $15 for the Baytril), I have Flagil coming to treat him for parasites ($20 including shipping from www.thebeanfarm.com), and I have a follow up visit at the vet on Friday (I'm assuming another $40). No fecal has been done since he has not eaten in clearly a long time. If, after I treat him with the flagil, he still refuses to eat, I seriouly doubt he will make it. I will see him through, and do everything I can to improve his health.
>>
>>The question I need help with from you guys is this...how much money should I accept from this seller as reclamation for my losses? My first instict is the entire sum including shipping. I feel I have taken a huge burden off of this person and in return I got to give him $210.00. I love all of my animals, and take great pride in the care I provide for them, but I have plenty of animals to care for, and I bought this one for a purpose that will likely not be met, and I have invested a lot of finacial resources that I would not have had to bear if I purchased a healthy animal.
>>
>>I would like to say that at least he did contact me...even though it's a little late in my opinion.
>>
>>I want to be fair, so, I would really like to hear your input.
>>
>>Thanks in Advance, Chris Olson

IF SOMEONE SHIPPED YOU A SICK BOA THEN HE IS A BAD GUY. POST IT LIKE YOU SEE IT. PEOPLE LIKE THIS NEED TO BE OUT OF THE HOBBY. I AM VERY SORRY FOR YOUR TROUBLE CHRIS, BUT YOU REALLY SHOULD TELL IT LIKE IT IS....

Thank you for your input, but I am posting it like I see it. There is a time and a place for everything. This is not the place IMO to smear someone's reputation.

There ARE places to do that when it's deserved. The intention of my post was to get advice on the recovery of my resources and doing so in a way that will be fair.

Thanks, Chris

IT'S OBVIOUS TO ME THAT THIS GUY WAS VERY UNFAIR TO YOU, SO WHY SHOULD YOU BE FAIR TO HIM? ASK FOR A FULL REFUND BECAUSE YOU SURE DON'T WANT ANYMORE OF HIS ANIMALS. UNFORTUNATELY TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE SELLING SICK ANIMALS ON KINGSNAKE. THIS HURTS EVERYONE ELSE SELLING ON HERE, SO LETS WEED OUT THE BAD GUYS. IT ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE YOU FEEL SORRY FOR THIS GUY. HE KNEW THE SNAKE WAS SICK WHEN HE BOXED IT UP. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS AND YOU SHOULD SEND THE PIECE OF CRAP BACK WHETHER HE WANTS IT BACK OR NOT. WHY SHOULD YOU CARE FOR HIS SICK SNAKE AND PAY HIS VET BILLS?

are already paid. I heard from this guy for the first time in 3 weeks today. I've already put the time and money into the animal before I knew he was willing to do something about it. When he didn't return my correspondence I assumed that was that. I feel it is my obligation to care for the animal as long as it is in my possession.

My original question was...if he doesn't want the animal back, what is "fair" compensation for him to pay me? Full refund even though the animal won't be returned? Half? Full sum plus vet bills?

No, I do not feel sorry for him.

THAT WHEN I GOT THE SNAKE IT HAD A FULL BLOWN RESPIRATORY AND THE SELLER KEPT IN CINSTANT CONTACT WITH ME I TREATED THE ANIMAL FOR A WEEK AND IN THAT TIME THE ANIMAL DID GET BETTER BUT THEN WENT BACK TO BEING SICK I EXPRESSED MY CONCERN TO THE PERSON I BOUGHT IT FROM AND I WANTED TO SEND THE ANIMAL BACK HE DID NOT WANT THE ANIMAL BACK AND TOLD ME TO KEEP HER HE ISSUED ME A REFUND EXCEPT FOR SHIPPING WHICH HE SAID IF THE ANIMAL DIED HE WOULD REINBURSE ME FOR THEN WELL ITS BEEN OVER A MONTH AND WHILE THE ANIMAL IS 100% BETTER THAN WHEN I RECEIVED HER SHE STILL HAS A NAGGING RESPIRATORY THE ANIMAL IS NEXT DOOR AT MY NEIGHBORS FOR FEAR OF UNDERLIEING PROBLEMS AND I REALLY DONT WANT TO RISK MY OTHER BOAS I HAVE TREATED WITH BAYTRIL AND TYLAN AND STILL SHE IS WEEZY MY NEXT STEP IS TO TRY FORTAZ AND SEE HOW THAT GOES SHE DID FINALLY FEED FOR ME LAST WEEK BUT SHE DEFINATLY STILL HAS A PROBLEM I THINK IT WOULD BE MORE THAN FAIR FOR THE SELLER TO REFUND YOU 100% AND IF HE DOSENT WANT HIS ANIMAL BACK I WOULD KEEP IT SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN UNDER THE SAME ROOF AS THE REST OF YOUR SNAKES JUST IN CASE AND HOPE FOR THE BEST AND AS FOR YOUR DESCISION NOT TO EXPOSE THE SELLER HERE I COMEND YOU YOUR 100% RIGHT THERE IS A TIME AND A PLACE FOR THAT KEEP ME POSTED ON HOW IT GOES
JOHN PERAZA

I AM NOT A BIGG GUY LIKE YOU ALL THAT ARE RESPONDING BUT I FEEL YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE REEMBURSED FOR THE COST OF THE BOA!I RECIEVED A HURT BOA FROM A VERY WELL KNOWN BREEDER ON HERE AN WAS TOLD TO KEEP THE BOA AN WAS REEMBURSED FOR IT,THIS GUY SHOULD DO THE SAME FOR YOU HE KNEW HE WAS IN THE WRONG THEIR IS A DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!![HYPOBOA]

Here's the way I see it. You shouldn't have assumed it would be shipped how you thought it should be shipped. You should have asked. If you received the snake on Thursday you should have e-mailed or called with your concerns.

You have to abide by the guarantee if applicable.

The thing I see is that if a seller was willing to "take your word" for the situation without some kind of proof, the seller must have known something wasn't right with the animal. I do not know how long the incubation period for RI is, but I would assume it is from 5-7 days, in which time you replied to the seller. So I think you're okay there.

You did not state how the animal was mis-represented. If it is for breeding, once well it very well could be a breedable animal.

IMO, everyone who buys sight-unseen over the web will eventually have to experience a situation like this. I think you are entitled to a refund on the purchase price of the animal and shipping only.

I know this sounds kinda negative on your part, It's not meant to be, it's just my opinion. I am sorry this happened to you.

If the deal isn't worked out suitably, I'd like to see it on the other site as a buyer beware!

Good luck.

Linda

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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

It was mis-represented by the seller advertising it as "perfect and healthy in everyway," and that it was "pounding live and frozen rats."

I believe it is the burden of all sellers who ship animals to ship them responsibly. I don't think my not asking him to ship it responsibly should be an issue.

Chris

Wait a minute...
I'm not meaning to sound like it's your fault. A reputable breeder should know how to ship.

I just offered MY opinion, I don't claim to know what's best in all situations, I just know what I did.

I hop things work out agreeably for you,
Linda

I'd like to chime in on this one.
I disagree with some of you.
If I understand this right, you contacted the seller after receiving the snake in an appropriate amount of time with the news of the respiratory problem. A sellers guarentee is usually only a few days or so, and maybe only for live arrival. It arrived alive didn't it? Respiratory problems can develop very quickly, but to be honest, you'll never really know if it had it prior to it being shipped or not. If it did & he is a crum cake, he'll never tell you. Assume it didn't. You did mention it was skinny but you have no pics. I'd rather give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Did he not give you the benefit of the doubt when you called him? Did you give him photo proof or is he just taking your word that YOU are telling the truth & not just trying to back out of a sale because you changed you mind for some reason? He stated he would do anything you wanted to rectify the situation, correct? And it was you who opted to keep the animal & try to care for it, correct? And there-in lies the rub my friend! And how long has it been now? A seller can't guarentee an animal forever. At some point the animal is yours, you did, after all, want it & bought it. You did it in good faith of course, I understand that, but he also made an offer to you to make it right any way you wanted. It was YOUR CHOICE to keep the animal. At this point, If he is willing to let you keep the animal(most breeders would have you send the animal back)& give you a refund, that is being more than fair and you should jump on his offer. Don't worry about the shipping, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, especially if the animal pulls through.
I would rather give someone the benefit of the doubt than assume he is a "bad guy" right off the bat - wouldn't you want the same consideration? If the snake makes it, is it possible the vet bills will ad up to be aproximatly the same amount as the original purchase price? You'd come out even & have some great experience treating a snake.
I'd tube it with a good cocktail of a good calorie suppliment & a raw egg mixed up with some pedialite pretty quick. Throw in some vitamin & calcium suppliments too. Good for ailing animals of any kind ! That animal needs some nurishment fast it sounds like to me!
Good Luck,
Paul Edwards

ABOUT THIS "CALORIE COCKTAIL" THAT YOU MENTIOND CAN YOU POST A RECIPE? THANKS
JOHN PERAZA

I'm not sure you understood the post. My chief concern was being fair to him in his attempt to reimburse me. He offered to do anything to rectify the situation until I told him I wanted to send it back because it was not the animal he represented in the ad, and then he ignored my correspondence for three weeks. "Perfect and Healthy in everyway...pounding f/t, pre-killed and live rodents. It is not healthy at all (and I'm not asking you or anyone else here to judge it's health by the way, I have a vet to do that) and it refuses all forms of food. The condition this animal is in does not occur over night. But again, I didn't write the post so people could debate the health of the snake. It has already been determined.

Did you consider the possiblity that he doesn't want it back because he knows something is wrong with it? Or the possibility that he's not taking my word for it, perhaps it's because he was already aware of problems?

This is public forum, so by all means post whatever you see fit, but you might consider paying closer attention to the post your replying to, you will find the answers to most of the questions you included in your post...and then you won't have to ask them.

Respectfully, Chris

Well I'd say you really have done your share of giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. He shipped a snake to you, knowingly or not, that was sick. He did not ship it correctly; I have never shipped anything out without styrofoam liners & have never received anything without it either. It appearently wasn't fed well, another sign of bad care. And he blew you off for 3 weeks. Bad business practices to be sure, but then some people are ignorent of what proper is. It's intent that's at question. What condition the animal is in now, your right, is up to your vet & you but is a vital part of all of this and central to your argument & basis for your refund. But I understand that does not address the question you asked. I would go for a full refund, adding shipping & vet expences if you can get him to pay for it all. It is only fair. Remember, what you are after is that you are demanding to be made whole again. It was his breach of trust that has caused you the problems. Your rightful expectation was that the animal was what it was being advertised as, and it clearly was not. If he wants to get legal about it, let me know...I'm 3 for 3 in small claims court ! LOL.
My view earlier was that everyone naturally assumes the seller is always the bad guy when problems arise and it just simply isn't true. Ones first approach should always be to take the high road & let the other guy show his true colors. This is the live animal business & certain things must be understood as risks taken on by both parties, reasonable expectations not withstanding. Many people seem to have what I call a "dime store mentality" about this business. They think you order an exact thing in an exact color at an exact size & it is in an exact condition, like you were buying a computer or something. Not so at all in the live animal business.
How about that...better ?
Paul Edwards

I will try that cocktail, that sounds like a solid idea...

Thanks, Chris

This is a tough one. I am sitting here thinking about what I would do. For one, with the way the snake was shipped, if it got cold during transit, is where most the RI came from, or it already had it and the stress of shipping brought it out. Who knows about that. If it was already skinny, well it shows the seller wasn't doing something right and shouldn't have sold it. Too many things just don't add up. It doesn't suprise me that this guy doesn't want the snake back, why would he? If he didn't take care of it in the first place, why would he want it back to have to take it to the vet, give it meds, actually help this boa out. It sounds like it's better off in your hands anyway.
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Jason & Danni
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I think he's got a better shot here...god knows my fiance and I are trying. My concern is however, even though I feel cheated, If this seller comes through with compensation...what is a fair amount? I don't want to rip HIM off, but I don't want this to end up being a money pit either. If you have an opinion on this I'd like to here it.

Thanks, Chris

I must say kudos to you for not taking advantage of this situation. I would either get my money back plus shipping or have him pay ALL of the vet bills and meds until the animal is healthly. He was supposed to sell you a healthly animal anyway. If he doesn't want the snake, keep it and don't feel bad about it, you paid for the vet bills(or for the snake depending on which route you take) so in a way you did pay for the animal. If he wants the snake back get your money and vet costs. That is how I would handle it. It sounds fair to me. Hopefully (having my doubts) this will be a wake up call for the seller NOT to sell sick animals. And I would send him a link on how to properly ship snakes. Might be a knock to his ego but who the he!! cares, he needs to learn. Hope this helps and everything works out. Let me know how it turns out for you, and good luck with the snake, I hope it recovers, it sounds as if you have done what needs to be done.

Danni
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Jason & Danni
Our Email
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