Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is not a bad guy report.

I purchased a snake from someone a little while ago( This shouldn't give any of you a clue to the persons identity because if you knew how many snakes I've purcahsed in the last month you'd crap).

When I got him, the first two things I noticed were his skinnyness and the way he was shipped. In a pillowcase, in a cardboard box with holes punched in it. No styrofoam or insulation.

I put him in an enclosure that I had pre-qualified with temps. and the ability to hold humidity. I received him on a Thursday and noticed "sneezing" on Saturday.

I contacted the seller Sunday via email who promptly contacted me the following morning. He said he would send me money for a vet bill or work it out however I wanted to. I told him to hold off, and I'll see if he can "kick" it by elevating his cage temp., which I had already started doing.

After review of the signs of respitory problems and his refusal to eat frozen, stunned, and live rodents I emailed the seller to tell him that I did not have confidence in the animals health and that I wanted to talk to him about refunding my money and sending the animal back.

This was about 3 weeks ago, at least, and I just heard back from him today via email. Now, I was on the verge of posting a "Buyer Beware" on one of the other sites that allow that sort of thing, becasue I feel that the animal needed medical attention before it was sold, and that the animal was mis represented in the ad. My intention was to buy a breedable animal (which I expressed to the seller, and what I got was a animal that is occuping a lot of resources). The buyer says that he didn't forget about me, that he is willing to send me money for the animal, but does not want him back. That's fine, I wouldn't ship him right now anyway...

In the time I have had him, I've purchased another animal to complete my breeding project ($225), he's been to the vet once and prescribed medication ($40 plus $15 for the Baytril), I have Flagil coming to treat him for parasites ($20 including shipping from www.thebeanfarm.com), and I have a follow up visit at the vet on Friday (I'm assuming another $40). No fecal has been done since he has not eaten in clearly a long time. If, after I treat him with the flagil, he still refuses to eat, I seriouly doubt he will make it. I will see him through, and do everything I can to improve his health.

The question I need help with from you guys is this...how much money should I accept from this seller as reclamation for my losses? My first instict is the entire sum including shipping. I feel I have taken a huge burden off of this person and in return I got to give him $210.00. I love all of my animals, and take great pride in the care I provide for them, but I have plenty of animals to care for, and I bought this one for a purpose that will likely not be met, and I have invested a lot of finacial resources that I would not have had to bear if I purchased a healthy animal.

I would like to say that at least he did contact me...even though it's a little late in my opinion.

I want to be fair, so, I would really like to hear your input.

Thanks in Advance, Chris Olson

I think purchase price plus shipping is fair.

You decided to seek medical attention on your own and that is a result of your willingness to save this animal. If it all works out, you get 2 animals, some extra meds/treatments, and all for the price of one animal plus the vet/med costs.

I know it stinks to think of the money you invested in the hopes of healing this animal, but you should definitely put a little bit more effort into attempted feeding, as food does wonders for these guys.

Try small prey - hoppers/fuzzies, try scenting, try just about anything you can think of! I have faith in your abilities... I'm sure you know all of this already.

Best of luck to you and keep us updated.
-----
-Iman
1.1 Sugar Gliders (Gizmo and Nema)
1.0 Ball Pythons (Spot)
0.1 Guyanan BCC (TBA)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow (TBA)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.



Imans House of Herps

Chris...I had a similar situation but the seller worked with me. I was able to return the animal and was refunded minus shipping. I'm not sure if there is a clear cut solution. I guess the solution is whatever you and the seller agree on to resolve this so that you are both happy. I personally would want a 100% refund but that is assuming I returned the animal. If I kept the animal, I would want a refund for the animal but not the shipping. Its a compromise so you can make the seller feel like their not completely getting screwed. Afterall, shipping is a great stress on the animals and can sometimes lead to other health problems, but I'm not entirely sure as to how quick symptoms normally appear...I guess it varies with each species and their immune system strength.

Also, I can understand your frustration with the seller's shipping method and I'm NOT in any way trying to say your at fault...but in the future, be more proactive about finding out the seller's shipping methods/practices. Ask ahead if they use sytro lined boxes and what the snake is shipped in. Also, be sure to ask about return policies. Most only have a live arrival guarantee but this only applies if the animal arrives dead obviously so I always ask what happens if I'm not 100% satisfied. I think any seller that avoids or sidesteps these questions is worth second-guessing.

I'm not sure what type of snake you got but I'd imagine its a rainbow boa (lol) and I would try to get a meal in it at some point before giving up hope. Also, you may want to postpone your next vet visit until the snake has a fecal...this way you can maybe save money depending on your vet's policy for visit fees.

Don't resort to posting on the other site (****) just yet until the seller is no longer in contact or they are unwilling to be reasonable with a comprimising solution. Give them the benefit of the doubt since not all sellers are bad, just a small percentage which causes us to jump to the worse case scenario.

Good Luck....keep me posted...i'm curious to your outcome as well as the snakes.
-----
Jason
----
0.2 Green Tree Pythons
2.2 Ringed Pythons
2.3 Ball Pythons
1.2 Hog Island Boas
1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas
1.1 Nicaraguan Boas
1.1 Argentine Boas
0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes
7.8 Corns (various morphs)
1.1 N. Pines(Pituophis)
0.0.1 N.Diamondback Terrapin
Pics (click here)

_____

circumventing the filter.

Edited on June 9, 2004 at 20:57:27 by phwyvern.

What a nice, diverse collection! Where do you house all of them and do you breed to cover your costs?

I hope to have a nice group like that some day.
-----
-Iman
1.1 Sugar Gliders (Gizmo and Nema)
1.0 Ball Pythons (Spot)
0.1 Guyanan BCC (TBA)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow (TBA)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.



Imans House of Herps

Thank you for the nice comments. I would reply in further detail but I do not want to stray from the current topic in the original post. I tried e-mailing your but did not see an address on your site and you have the email feature blocked in your user preferences for this website.
-----
Jason
----
0.2 Green Tree Pythons
2.2 Ringed Pythons
2.3 Ball Pythons
1.2 Hog Island Boas
1.1 Sonoran Desert Boas
1.1 Nicaraguan Boas
1.1 Argentine Boas
0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
2.2 Bairds Ratsnakes
7.8 Corns (various morphs)
1.1 N. Pines(Pituophis)
0.0.1 N.Diamondback Terrapin
Pics (click here)

np

Chris,
. Shipping a snake exposes it to temperature extremes. Temperatures can vary greatly from one part of the country to the next. Shipments can be left in cold warehouses overnight or in hot vehicles out in the sun during the day. If they are air shipped there is even more chance that the snake is exposed to cold temperatures. Shipments often get misrouted or delayed. Styrofoam lined shipping boxes which are very inexpensive have been the standard of the industry for years. Before shipping was done in insulated boxes shipping losses were high. People who ship in uninsulated boxes are seriously mistreating animals. Rather than trying to be fair to them we should expose them and drive them out of business.
Jeff

>>This is not a bad guy report.
>>
>>I purchased a snake from someone a little while ago( This shouldn't give any of you a clue to the persons identity because if you knew how many snakes I've purcahsed in the last month you'd crap).
>>
>>When I got him, the first two things I noticed were his skinnyness and the way he was shipped. In a pillowcase, in a cardboard box with holes punched in it. No styrofoam or insulation.
>>
>>I put him in an enclosure that I had pre-qualified with temps. and the ability to hold humidity. I received him on a Thursday and noticed "sneezing" on Saturday.
>>
>>I contacted the seller Sunday via email who promptly contacted me the following morning. He said he would send me money for a vet bill or work it out however I wanted to. I told him to hold off, and I'll see if he can "kick" it by elevating his cage temp., which I had already started doing.
>>
>>After review of the signs of respitory problems and his refusal to eat frozen, stunned, and live rodents I emailed the seller to tell him that I did not have confidence in the animals health and that I wanted to talk to him about refunding my money and sending the animal back.
>>
>>This was about 3 weeks ago, at least, and I just heard back from him today via email. Now, I was on the verge of posting a "Buyer Beware" on one of the other sites that allow that sort of thing, becasue I feel that the animal needed medical attention before it was sold, and that the animal was mis represented in the ad. My intention was to buy a breedable animal (which I expressed to the seller, and what I got was a animal that is occuping a lot of resources). The buyer says that he didn't forget about me, that he is willing to send me money for the animal, but does not want him back. That's fine, I wouldn't ship him right now anyway...
>>
>>In the time I have had him, I've purchased another animal to complete my breeding project ($225), he's been to the vet once and prescribed medication ($40 plus $15 for the Baytril), I have Flagil coming to treat him for parasites ($20 including shipping from www.thebeanfarm.com), and I have a follow up visit at the vet on Friday (I'm assuming another $40). No fecal has been done since he has not eaten in clearly a long time. If, after I treat him with the flagil, he still refuses to eat, I seriouly doubt he will make it. I will see him through, and do everything I can to improve his health.
>>
>>The question I need help with from you guys is this...how much money should I accept from this seller as reclamation for my losses? My first instict is the entire sum including shipping. I feel I have taken a huge burden off of this person and in return I got to give him $210.00. I love all of my animals, and take great pride in the care I provide for them, but I have plenty of animals to care for, and I bought this one for a purpose that will likely not be met, and I have invested a lot of finacial resources that I would not have had to bear if I purchased a healthy animal.
>>
>>I would like to say that at least he did contact me...even though it's a little late in my opinion.
>>
>>I want to be fair, so, I would really like to hear your input.
>>
>>Thanks in Advance, Chris Olson

Everyone,

I am the seller of the boa to Chris Olson. I do not have any problems sending him a check for the animal minus shipping. The shipping charge alone was 48.00. Chris can keep the animal because i rather not put the animal through any more trauma as it is. On the shipping issue... i did discuss with Chris the shipping methods, heat packs, cold packs etc, temps in each city... and about a situation that had recently happened to me. I received a overnight package from NH and it was a foam insulated box. The animal inside was COOKED!!!! It was a 4ft dwarf Caiman. I received the animal at roughly 9am that day. So from the time package left the plane to my doorstep he was roasted, not much time spent in a hot truck.
I sent the package to Chris with this in mind. I even punched holes in the sides to help ventilate the box in case of extreme high temps.
Chris paid good money for this animal and i do not intend to leave him hanging on this one. This is why when i sent him an email asking what he thinks what would be fair. i left it within his discretion. May it be not as timely, I do appologize!!! But i I have been burnt twice in the last month, so again, i do not intend to pass this on to Chris.

So before you burn me at the stake, take into consideration that this was a isloated incident, and I have always shipped in foam boxes, but after receiving the dead caiman i did not want to take any chances with Chris's Boa.

Let me further say that my partner had nothing to do with this transaction and I take full responsiblity for this one.

Thanks,

Rich Morris
Exclusively Exotics

Rich,
. I am certain that the styrofoam insulation did not cause the problem with the shipped Caiman. It would have actually protected the Caiman from high temps for at least awhile. Was it packed with too many heat packs? Perhaps someone in the shipping business does not like reptiles and intentionally did something harmful. Shipping in styrofoam lined boxes has been the only way reputable dealers and breeders ship during the last decade. Before that we had lots of problems with respiratory infections and shortened lifespans after shipping in uninsulated boxes. You say you have been burned twice in the last month? I have been doing this for a long time and have yet to be cheated by anyone.
Jeff

>>Everyone,
>>
>>I am the seller of the boa to Chris Olson. I do not have any problems sending him a check for the animal minus shipping. The shipping charge alone was 48.00. Chris can keep the animal because i rather not put the animal through any more trauma as it is. On the shipping issue... i did discuss with Chris the shipping methods, heat packs, cold packs etc, temps in each city... and about a situation that had recently happened to me. I received a overnight package from NH and it was a foam insulated box. The animal inside was COOKED!!!! It was a 4ft dwarf Caiman. I received the animal at roughly 9am that day. So from the time package left the plane to my doorstep he was roasted, not much time spent in a hot truck.
>> I sent the package to Chris with this in mind. I even punched holes in the sides to help ventilate the box in case of extreme high temps.
>>Chris paid good money for this animal and i do not intend to leave him hanging on this one. This is why when i sent him an email asking what he thinks what would be fair. i left it within his discretion. May it be not as timely, I do appologize!!! But i I have been burnt twice in the last month, so again, i do not intend to pass this on to Chris.
>>
>>So before you burn me at the stake, take into consideration that this was a isloated incident, and I have always shipped in foam boxes, but after receiving the dead caiman i did not want to take any chances with Chris's Boa.
>>
>>Let me further say that my partner had nothing to do with this transaction and I take full responsiblity for this one.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Rich Morris
>>Exclusively Exotics