Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone,

I have a 1.1 pair of adult blue tree monitors in a 6'H X 32"W X 32"D tank (shower stall) which has been decorated to look as natural as possible with many hide spots. My ambient temp is in the 80's with a much hotter basking spot. They are misted 9 times a day at 3 minutes per session. I received these monitors yesterday. Upon arrival i tried offering them crickets to which they were not responsive. Today i offered small mice in a rubbermaid container on the floor of the cage. I also held the mice up to the monitors also with no responce. The monitors appear healthy, good body weight, and are very quick. They do not appear to be sick or weak. I am a keeper and breeder of ackies and this is my first experience with tree monitors and as all previous posts have said, "don't turn your back on these for too long." I want to keep track of them from the start. Does anyone have any tips to get them to eat? When i first got my ackies they ate the second i offered food. I'm going on 36 hours with no attempts to eat. Is this common with tree monitors after being shipped? The dealer i purchased through said they were eating well, and they appear to have done so. If anyone has any helpful tips (other then to e-mail tree monitor keepers) as i already have e-mailed a few with no responce, please reply. Thank you in advance for any help anyone can offer.

Chris

Hey chris, not sure if you tried emailing me; my email has been crapping out lately, so I don'nt know who's been trying to reach me...

As I'm sure you've read in past posts, tree monitors are among the most difficult animals to acclimate. The reason why you are having difficulties when compared to your ackies is, that ackies are captive bred animals-been bred for dozens of generations now... Tree monitors, especially blue tree monitors are ALL imported, WILD CAUGHT animals... Think about it...if you were living happily in the treetops of an indonesian forest, and then you were captured, shoved into a sack, held in poor condition at the exporter's facility, shipped 2000 miles, into the hands of an importer, where they probably weren't given proper care and attention, then to a retailer/distributor, and then into your posession... That's an awful amount of stress for a wild animal.. Acclimation to captivity is a long, and sometimes frustrating ordeal... You cannot expect an animal who is now in a new unrecongisable(no matter how "naturalistic" you make it..), to just say, "well, at least it's better than the exporter's enclosure", and resume eating like nothing ever happened???

I would suggest that you keep them isolated in separate, smaller enclosures- so that you can monitor each's progress, or problems...

For my female boehmei, I am currently using a 65 gallon/ish rubbermaid container with a 50 watt basking lamp fixed to an acrylic cover, with only a few holes drilled in the top for air exchange. I have a few branches and some cork stacked up to provide hides, and access to a basking temp of about 140F. For substrate, I use dampened sphagnum moss, to keep humidity up, and I spray the quarantine enclosure a couple times daily, to encourage her to drink off of the sides of the tub, or cage furniture.. Remember, it is very unlikely that this freshly wild caught animal will know to drink out of a water bowl... Being a tree denizen, I would imagine that it would be very rare for a tree monitor to travel down to the forest floor, and seek out a standing body of water to drink from... I would assume they drink off of leaves and branches in the wild after rainstorms..

Humidity is the key, and to provide an ample basking site and ambient air temp- I keep the air temp about 83-85F all day/night long. I usually wait a few days to let them get settled in to their quarantine enclosures, and after a couple days I will try feeding live or f/t fuzzies. Keep your observations limited, as your captives will not come out if they have a big ogre(hahahaha) looking down at them all the time...

Hopefully, they will turn around and start eating with time, and proper conditions.. I think that keeping them together in such a large enclosure is a bad start; even if food was disappearing, how would you know who was eating it??? Keep them separated until you know that they are doing fine... then carefully introduce them.. You are also throwing two strangers together and forcing them to live in a limited area...How would you like it if you were forced to share a 6 x 6 room with a stranger from another country, like detroit...haha.. So that is another thing that must be kept in mind.. I usually keep my tree monitors in quarantine for several months; I think my female boehmei is going on month 4 or 5 now in quarantine; although she'll eat 8 fuzzies in a day, and drinks water regularly after I mist, I still feel she needs to wait a bit until I introduce her with my male... But I would have to do a lot of rearanging and constructing of the enclosure before I do that...

So basically, tree monitors are a pain in the ass... And, unfortunately, most dealers do not tell their customers this sad, but true fact, and it is even more depressing to see the hundreds of tree monitors that succumb to improper husbandry/conditions each year... It kind of makes you want the gov. to stop importing these animals if they are just going to die...but then again, how would captive bred individuals ever come to be(will they ever??), without importing wild caught individuals...

The key to their success, as well as any monitor/reptile is water- without proper moisture/humidity levels, most monitors will dehydrate and die.... Keep them well hydrated and heated, and everything else will hopefully follow... Don't rush them though, they are not the species to push around and expect them to do things for you....

I hope this helps a bit, good luck with your macraei, let us know how things turn out for them...

Bob
The Odatriad- V. macraei

np

I plan on getting a Black Tree in the near future. I read all I can on them, I just learned a little more. When it comes time for me to purchase one, is there a reputable source you could recommend. I would like to get a babie or juvi. Also, what rain making system are you working with, and are you happy with it? If its not to much trouble I would like to see your quarantine setup. Thanx again, Clint

Hey clint,

As for a reputable dealer, there are a bunch, however, I am not one for plugging other people's businesses... I must say though, that of all the people I've purchased animals from, Ben Seigel has to be one of the greatest guys at that end of the industry's spectrum... Great guy...

I currently have two big apple mist systems hooked up between my tree monitor enclosures- 2 cages to a system, 2 nozzels in each cage. I think they are great; affordable, reliable, and problem free.. My only complaint was that the resevoir they supply you with is a 2 gallon bucket... which in my opinion is not big enough. I bought a couple of kitchen garben cans-the ones with the flip top lids... because they are tall and narrrow, and fit in the tight space I have alotted for the resevoir.. Now, my systems hold 20 gallons or so, so i don't have to worry about it running dry and burnign out the pump...

I am currently(if I ever get the time to do it) working on adding a humidifier system to my tree monitor cages. I have used this with my beccari in one of their older cages.. I simply rig up a standard household humidifier; one whose "exaust" area is on the top of the unit... Usually, the opening is circular in shape; mine is conical-wider at the mouth, and gets thinner as you go into the unit.. this makes it easy to attach some flexible hosing, or pvc in my case.. I then run the pvc up and into the cages, with an elbow on the end, pointing the fog downward. Make sure you use screening on the end of the pvc to avoid any attempted escapes through the pvc... I have had my humidifier pump fog up 5 feet through a 2.5" diameter pvc... It also looks really cool when the entire cage is filled with fog... I will run this more frequently than the misters, as it uses far less water... The rain system will be their drinking water/shower water... The humidifier approach is a great way to keep humidity up, if you have problems with doing so...

As for pics of my quarantine enclsoure; my camera is out on loan right now to my boa buddy, but I think I have some pics somewhere on my cpu of one of my old quarantine cages for my beccari- in that case, I used a 55gal aquarium, with a heat lamp and acrylic covering the top.. I also covered the glass sides with newspaper to create a visual barrier. I'll look for it, i'll try posting it later this evening..

Take care clint, let me know if you've got any more q's...Have a great day..

Bob
The Odatriad

Great information Bob, thanks for sharing your experiences. I think many people are interested in the beautiful tree monitors, but they have different requirements to keep them successfully. I feel bad when I see how inexpensive the black trees are. As you mentioned, so many will die due to bad husbandry or just plain stress killing them. Hopefully some time in the future, captive breds will become available, but only with hard work and the dedication of people like yourself will this come about. Best of luck with yours! Hope to see some babies in the future.

Pam

Im not a keeper of this species but have read alot about them but this has nothing to do with the type of monitor you have and everything to do with them being monitors. You say you breed ackies? Its kinda funny how some people can be so inclined in one area of a thing but when it comes to something as simple as a newly acquired monitor not eating the first few days there not a clue to be found. This is normal, more common than not. Yes i've brought monitors home as well and they've eaten right away but the majority need time to adjust to their new surroundings, wouldnt you after being shoved into a small box and shipped who knows where and taken out somewhere youve never seen before? Give them a week or so, they won't die of starvation if thats your concern lol.
-----
Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

I fully agree with odatriad and monitorman.

I wouldn't even think about offering a new monitor food
in the first few days.

As odatriad mentioned they should be quarantined
separately & kept in sparse conditions at least until
they have had stool samples checked and treated
accordingly.

Expect them to take quite awhile to acclimate. One trick
that I used on freshly imported Timors is offering a small
lizard. They can't resist that. Although this should normally
not be done, it is sometimes the only way to get them
eating. A small lizard like an anole should be frozen,
thawed and brained (skull cut open) to increase the scent.
Give the animal plenty of privacy after offering the anole.
After the monitor will take the anole, begin scenting pinkie
mice with the lizards brain. Soon the monitor will take
unscented pinkies.

I'm sure that you can't wait to critique this post SHvar.

If it works for you then do it, my old timor (given to a good friend, now the oldest of the monitors) was an import yet fed from insects and mice right away, so did the female now living with him. Hes around 6-7 years old Im guessing and around 30 inches long.

haha....

I was right, you have to comment on everything I post.

MOST (but not all) freshly imported Timors that I have
owned also began feeding on insects with no problems.

DISCLAIMER:
When I mention a specific instance of a specific experience,
that in no way implies that it is true all of the time, in perpetuity
throughout the universe.

In your post, quit wasting forum...
I posted about personal experience and you attack with insults still. You claimed I said things on another response purely to insult and attack me, but I never stated them, you claimed that I attacked you, again that makes you a liar.
Shame, shame, shame.

Good news, 1 of the 2 mice were missing when i came home from work today. Last night i hung a shower curtain over the cage to block vision. When i opened the curtain today they appeared to be alot less stressed...they did not run. I did not quaratine because they already went through a quarantine and decontamination process, and were treated for parasites. Now that they seem more comfortable I am weary about moving them again to a quarantine cage. Do you think they'd be best if i just kept them where they are? As far as 2 strangers in the same room go, their first night they spent together one on top of the other, so i think they might like one another. Thank you all for your input. Always good to read more. Keep it coming!

Chris

Again, you're jumping the gun right now... Keep in mind, this is day 2, or 3? of them being in your care... Can you honestly say that you are able to tell that they are both doing great in just a few days? Just because one of them ate a mouse, doesn't mean that everything is great... Explain to me how you are going to know which individual is eating? There is no way of telling...

I think you should separate them into quarantine enclosures.. I honestly do not think that they are "settled in", or acclimated to their new home yet, so i really don't think that it would affect them anymore than they have been in the past few days.. You are forgetting that these are not ackies.. Ackies, being captive bred, you don't have to worry about parasites, or high levels of stress. Tree monitors are a whole other ballgame...

Besides, who the hell knows if the animals were in fact treated for parasites, and who knows what kind of conditions they were kept in prior to you recieving them... I do not care if the dealer is "reputable" or not, in most cases, they have their animals set up in aquariums on aspen bedding... not my idea of proper conditions for a freshly wild caught animal... It is also debateable whether or not medicating for worms is beneficial or necessary... Is the animal dealer you purchased them from a vet? How do they know what medications to use, and what dose?? Do they use a vet to medicate all of their animals...probably not, it would cost them too much, and be too much of a hassle for them, considering the quantity of animals that pass through dealers hands each week.. So, the moral of this story is never trust what a dealer has told you... always be skeptical..in your case, these are not LTC's as they may have claimed, but freshly caught imports..

Look at all of the "reputable" dealers who advertise "CB" savanah and nile monitors... Do your research...

But as I have said several times now, the success of your animals depends on you... I kind of get the feeling that you are hesitant to separate them because you don't have the space/ don't feel like caring for two separate cages... Trust me, you will not be able to keep a close enough eye on the pair if you keep them together.. If you were to keep them together, I would bet the male would come around and start eating first, and would overpower the female, eating all the food offered.. Remember, this isn't husband and wife- "oh, you can have the last pork chop, honey..".. These are complete strangers, now being forced to live together in a tiny area, with no where to really avoid one another...

I am sure others will agree that separating your blues will be a wiser decision, otherwise, the health of your animals may never improve.. Also keep in mind, that feeding them is not the most important thing in the world for them to do.. They can go weeks/months(don't try this at home) without food in the wild.. I wouldn't even try offering food for the first week or so... Everytime you open the cage door/lid, they get stressed... Separate them, let them adjust for a period, keep them well hydrated, and then offer feeding them...

In the wild, the prasinus complex breeds in the late rainy season, and gravid females must go through the dry season with very little food to eat, lay their eggs, and still manage to hold in there for the upcoming rainy season... I wouldn't worry about the food thing right now..

Well, as I said before, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope your animals pull through, but I very highly suggest taking some of the recommendations which have been given to you...

Take care, have a wonderful day,

Bob
The Odatriad

Like what I have said, you are trying to keep two total strangers together in a tiny box. One individual's natural territory in the wild would be hundreds of times bigger than your enclosure..

After the acclimation/quarantine period, I do not immediately put the two together. What I have done in the past with my blues and blacks, is I kept them in enclosures which were side by side, in the same room. I kept them separated like this for about a month(maybe a few weeks). I felt that this would allow eachother to become acclimated and familiar with eachother's smells. After this isolated period, I then put them together, the male into the female's established territory. Since females are smaller, and more fragile, I avoid moving females at all costs. By this time, they are both eating great, are well hydrated, and are "accustomed" to eachother's scents.

While I'm sure some people may feel that this is unnecesary, I have found it to be successful with my animals, for my black tree monitors have copulated(unfortunately both females died with developing ovum inside), and my blues have copulated several times about four weeks ago.. While this does not say much, I do feel that it somewhat of a step in the right direction, as getting tree monitors adjusted to captivity is the crucial, first step, but getting them comfortable enough in captivity to breed is a step higher..Of course getting eggs and hatching babies is definately the final and difficult step, but hey, just taking one baby step at a time... who knows what the future brings??

So, anybody please let me hear your constructive criticism on introducing wild caught animals... I think that you are just going to run into serious problems if you just slap two animals together.. fighting may develop, or one animal may be bullied around to the point where it may stop eating/drinking, and we all know that that means death... I have heard of many instances of introducing wc indo species- indicus, jobiensis, salvator, salvadorii, melinus, and bengalensis(not indo), where cagemates have inflicted serious damage to one another, seriously maiming eachother, or even causing death...

I have had great success with my approach, and have not lost a monitor due to cage aggression, or starvation/dehydration(from dominant individuals reigning over submissive individuals).

So Chris, that is another thing to take into account when introducing your animals after your quarantine period. Remember what I said, the two animals you have are strangers, probably coming from hundreds of miles away from one another.... and take that analogy I used... I don't think you would want to move in with some stranger, who may be carrying disease/parasites, and who is just going to pick on you, and steal your luch money.... I hope you are starting to see that these animals are not Ackies...

Take care,

bob

Bob,

"I hope that you are starting to see that these are not Ackies." There was never a time that I thought they were ackies, which is why i wanted them. I wanted them because of their amazing beauty and the fact that they are polar opposites of what i currently have in my collection. Mentioning Ackies on my part was to merely show a little background in monitor husbandry, in no way comparing the two or even thinking of them the same way. No disrespect, but this is why i chose to post at such an early time. As in other posts, people have waited to long to ask for help. Ever hear "an apple a day will keep the doctor away?" Asking in ADVANCE about problems is my "apple." If i can learn about a problem and prevent it, rather then wait for it to happen, then i would much rather do it that way and not wait until i'm at the brink of losing an animal before i ask for help. I have kept and housed animals for many years, I am in NO WAY claiming i know everything, that is also why i post here. I do my research, and i am VERY skeptical by nature. Like i said in my first post, this is my first stab at a tree monitor specie, i know you all have had success in the past, so why not ask those that know how to do it from experience? In no way have i been ignoring your recommendations, it is but a learning process. With the exception of animals i have caught myself, I have always worked with CB specimens. So the quarantining procedures you mention are new to me, and i will have to set a program like that up. I made a statement that 1 mouse was eaten. Somehow out of that it was interpreted that i said "everything was fine and that they are healthy." I don't recall ever saying such a thing. I know this is an uphill battle, and i'm trying to keep up through all of your help. You ask how i know who is doing what and how i keep track. I don't know how you monitor your feeding, but i offer food near their respective hidespots (they have their own)which they tend not to stray from and i can tell my animals apart, so i do know which sex is eating, and yes, it is my male. My female is still not ready and i am not forcing the issue, hydration is my current goal. I'm sure its unlike other keepers, I also keep daily logs of their activities that i see while i "need" to be in their cage, as i keep out and away as much as possible to reduce stress. I know this is my first attempt at an arboreal monitor, and even though your posts are very informative and helpful, it seems as though because i'm openly admitting to having no experience with a certain specie any credibility i have with other species is lost. Everything has a beginning, this is my start...something i need to carefully watch and learn from. I am in no way "jumping the gun" as stated. I'm sure like others that own this specie, this is the pride and joy of my collection. I do not just "throw them together," close my eyes, and hope for the best. I am VERY active in making sure their wellbeing is always being looked out for. In closing, where do you find your 60 gal containers? 35-40 gal is the biggest I can find around here. I assume that is too small for a single 12" SV, 3' TL blue tree (they are both the same size)?
also, do you have pics of your quarantine setup? if yes, could you e-mail? send to: TuNdEr770@aol.com

Thank you for the help you have offered, it is appreciated and listened to.

Chris

Hey chris,

I didn't mean any offense in my post, I was just going by you first posted- something along the lines of= i've had ackies that would eat right after I get them in, but my blues haven't eaten anything yet..

I think it is great that you have a positive attitude, and want to do what's best for your animals. I am not saying that my techniques were correct, as RSG's technique may work well for him. Although slapping them together may work out, I do not know how you could keep a close eye on who is feeding/drinking etc... especially freshly wild caught animals who are going to spend an awful amount of time hiding from your view..

As for the rubbermaids, I'm not positive on the size, maybe it is 45 gallons... I do know that there is more floor space than a 55 gallon aquarium, which I feel is better, although I have used 55 gallon aquariums in the same fashion, just making sure that humidity is kept in, by means of acrylic.

I'll try to dig up a pic somewhere, but I must say, it is nothing impressive, rather simple, no fancy cage decorations, just a few hide spots(cork), a water tub, and some branches/cork that allow him/her to get close to the basking light.

Keep us posted, have a great day, once again, I apologize for any offense taken...

Bob

I am one of those that believes you can just throw two monitors together and it should be fine, assuming you have the right cage setup. No need to make things too complicated.
I hear about wet seasons, special diets, jumping through hoops to acclimate and I cringe.
You are also right that getting a monitor to copulate doesn't mean much, it's what they do, ackies or beccari.

Hey Bob good advice, informative and in-depth. Just would like to add to it, that I've found the initial moments in introducing monitors to each other- to be the most telling. They will usually
be aggressive upon introduction then if no violence occurs, they will usually work it out, but really who knows what the future holds. Like the old saying "“No guest is so welcome in a friend's house that he will not become a nuisance after three days.”