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that can become patternless. With my previous experience of working with many herps that appear to exhibit brighter colors or diminished patterns as they age and mature (Pituophis as well as other Kings (Brooksi) as/for examples) it was fairly easy for me to accept that would occur with some Blotched King hatchlings as well. After reading many posts though as well as 2 particular e-mails I have just recieved there are those that believe only patternless hatchlings should be considered patternless. Another as to using Blotched to describe any eventual patternless individuals as being incorrect where as they should be termed patternless. Now here if one was to term a blotched appearing hatchling a patternless from a line of kings said to evetually appear patternless at maturity would leave some unhappy.

It seems we have much additional confusion here not only with others of the thought that there were no blotched hatchlings that became petternless to begin with but also with what patternless really should be considered or termed?

I can see how this would truely muddy the waters when speaking of these herps just as using Blotched, Apalachicola or Goini when even labeling one of these in chat has done. No matter what you term one, it appears it leaves someone open for debate by another who just does not agree. I can see how this would muddy this area even more so when one starts to think about finding one herp that is pretty much clearly blotched as a hatchling and have it maturing into what some would clearly consider a patternless. Would some consider these "Goini" as only when mature? What about when young? Thats was another question e-mailed to me. To some probably, to others probably not. I'm sure there would be a list of reasons used from both thoughts

I'm just throwing this out there as an example only based on some stuff I have just recently read. Criticsm in any way I hope is left out of this thread (thats if one even develops from this post) as well as with "any" views that may be presented. There has always existed much debate with these kings and we most certainly don't need it rehashed now in any negative way.

What though would be great is if some people that have actually raised and bred these kings share with us their personal experiences. Especially those that have and possibly produce patternless as well as individuals that are said to eventually become (or that will exhibit no pattern) patternless at maturity. Pics would be great as well.

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

a pic to get us started. Here is one that has a solid black belly that I believe will not lighten enough to ever be considered a patternless. Though it is my hope she keeps that color......

another pic of a different female though with a patternless yellow belly exhibiting a blotched pattern that is said will eventually lose her pattern as she matures...

I had a friend into herps especially Kingsnakes. While going through a rough time I offered to let him stay in an extra room we had at the house. At this time Lloyd Lemke became very ill. He and I ordered some snakes from Lloyd. I got some Blizzard Cal Kings some Kenyan Sand Boas and my friend got some young patternless Blotched Kings. When they came they did have the pattern we are so familiar with. As they grew the pattern did disappear. So Rich you are correct in your post. Richard
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Lloyd was quite a herper who took advantage of his time when many native locale specific colubrids were more common in numbers in their native habitat. He put together some nice breeding colonies of many native colubrids I myself WISH I could now find stock of. Most I hear being used in what has now become modern day morph projects with much of his pure lines hard to trace. I have actually looked hard and wide for descendants of some of those Brooksi he was working with. It has been said some originated as WC from Turkey Point. If anyone ever hears anything on these do not hesitate to contact me but I feel they are long gone as well.

I though in my very limited communications with him focused more on brooksi and chain kings (both of which he had some nice specific groups of) and not his other kingsnake lines. In my opinion a true pioneer in this hobby or field, which ever way you may look at it.

I have attached a pic of the only blotched king I have from Lloyd's line. I would be interested in speaking with others that may be working with these as well as they are getting hard to come across.

Your signature quote seems very appropriate for this hobby BTW when you consider how some of these Locales had so much meaning at one time in leu of present day importance and interest in morphs instead. I personally work with both sides to keep my balance but with hopes of being LUCKY enough to always have the room to add some of these natural occuring treasures that did get most of this hobby started years ago.

Rich Hebron